The Pig Idea

Do you keep livestock? Having any problems? Want to talk about it, whether it be sheep, goats, chickens, pigs, bees or llamas, here is your place to discuss.
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boboff
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The Pig Idea

Post: #263333 boboff
Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:40 pm

http://www.thepigidea.org/

Alys Fowler RT in twitter.

Does seem like a very very sensible thing to fight for!

I sent an email in support, will you?

No, oh ok then, thats fine.........
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No I won't use a smiley because I've decided to turn into Boboff, as he's turned all nice all of a sudden. Grumble grumble.

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Re: The Pig Idea

Post: #263336 Mustardseedmama
Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:22 pm

I'm confused. Is it actually against the law in the U.K. to feed your animals your kitchen scraps and waste?
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Re: The Pig Idea

Post: #263337 Sophie_Chillie
Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:34 pm

Mustardseedmama wrote:I'm confused. Is it actually against the law in the U.K. to feed your animals your kitchen scraps and waste?


Apparently so, I didn't know that either until reading the poster. Maybe the H&S brigade took over, again!

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Re: The Pig Idea

Post: #263339 chickenchargrill
Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:43 pm

Yep, it's illegal here, to stop the spread of disease because meat may be dealt with in the same kitchen. You can be jailed for up to 2 years, according to DEFRA.

If you peel your spuds in the back garden, that's fine.

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Re: The Pig Idea

Post: #263342 oldjerry
Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:19 pm

Not if at any time those spuds have been in your kitchen.Small - scale pig producers have been on about this for YEARS and YEARS.If anyones interested I could relate how me and dad collected swill from resteaurants boiled it under licence bla bla bla.
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Re: The Pig Idea

Post: #263347 GeorgeSalt
Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:56 pm

Sophie_Chillie wrote:
Mustardseedmama wrote:I'm confused. Is it actually against the law in the U.K. to feed your animals your kitchen scraps and waste?


Apparently so, I didn't know that either until reading the poster. Maybe the H&S brigade took over, again!


Nowt to do with H&S or the HSE, it comes under DEFRA. Although many of use that deal with H&S often get to wear the Food Safety hat as well..

It was the follow-on from Salmonella scares, BSE, foot and mothet, etc. raft of measures was introduced to remove animal by-products from animal feed. Up until that point it was quite common for wastes from the slaughter and meat processing industries to be recycled back into animal feed. I was just entering the animal feed industry as these were being phased out. For quite a while the blending systems and bin labels still included entries (although I never saw them used) for the likes of feather meal (ground feathers), poultry offal (processed blood and guts from chicken meat processing), bone meal, meat and bone meal, blood meal, etc. As I said, we didn't use any of these in my time but I did get a regular visit from the DEFRA vet for a cup of coffee and to take samples for analysis - pointless really as we didn't produce any ruminant feeds which the regulations were primarily aimed at.

In some ways it was a shame, as this was the most cost-effective method of recovering value from some these wastes and a raft of other ingredients had to be introduced or the usage significantly increased to make-up the nutritional shortfall (massive increases in the use of fishmeal and hi-pro soya; mono- and dicalcium phosphate, powdered amino acids, etc). In other ways it was great, many of these ingredients were unpleasant to handle (poultry offal, meat meal) or were of dubious value (at one time poultry litter was being heat-treated and pelleted for use in feeds - chickens being rather inefficient and a lot of the nutrition passing straight through).

Because of the regulations that banned the feeding of mammalian proteins back to mammals the old slops bucket became a problem - because it typically contained a mixture of animal and vegetable. A DEFRA spot-check identifying meat proteins in the feeding trough would be a major problem for the owner of the pigs.

It will be interesting whether swill or AD will win this argument.. AD is making massive strides at the moment and isn't too fussy about the feedstock.
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Re: The Pig Idea

Post: #263349 boboff
Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:28 pm

What's AD?

I agree with the commercial aspect, but why can't I take the Pubs Plate scrapings and my own and feed them to the pigs I want to Eat?

As it stands I can't, which is daft.
Millymollymandy wrote:Bloody smilies, always being used. I hate them and they should be banned.
No I won't use a smiley because I've decided to turn into Boboff, as he's turned all nice all of a sudden. Grumble grumble.

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Re: The Pig Idea

Post: #263363 Thomzo
Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:27 pm

boboff wrote:What's AD?

I agree with the commercial aspect, but why can't I take the Pubs Plate scrapings and my own and feed them to the pigs I want to Eat?

As it stands I can't, which is daft.


Are you going to slaughter them yourself? Otherwise, they will be going through the same abattoir as pigs designated for general consumption. The bacteria could get transferred there which would put everyone at risk.

Salmonella shouldn't be taken lightly, it can be at best serious and fatal for the vulnerable.

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Re: The Pig Idea

Post: #263372 oldjerry
Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:12 pm

GeorgeSalt wrote:
Sophie_Chillie wrote:
Mustardseedmama wrote:I'm confused. Is it actually against the law in the U.K. to feed your animals your kitchen scraps and waste?


Apparently so, I didn't know that either until reading the poster. Maybe the H&S brigade took over, again!


Nowt to do with H&S or the HSE, it comes under DEFRA. Although many of use that deal with H&S often get to wear the Food Safety hat as well..

It was the follow-on from Salmonella scares, BSE, foot and mothet, etc. raft of measures was introduced to remove animal by-products from animal feed. Up until that point it was quite common for wastes from the slaughter and meat processing industries to be recycled back into animal feed. I was just entering the animal feed industry as these were being phased out. For quite a while the blending systems and bin labels still included entries (although I never saw them used) for the likes of feather meal (ground feathers), poultry offal (processed blood and guts from chicken meat processing), bone meal, meat and bone meal, blood meal, etc. As I said, we didn't use any of these in my time but I did get a regular visit from the DEFRA vet for a cup of coffee and to take samples for analysis - pointless really as we didn't produce any ruminant feeds which the regulations were primarily aimed at.

In some ways it was a shame, as this was the most cost-effective method of recovering value from some these wastes and a raft of other ingredients had to be introduced or the usage significantly increased to make-up the nutritional shortfall (massive increases in the use of fishmeal and hi-pro soya; mono- and dicalcium phosphate, powdered amino acids, etc). In other ways it was great, many of these ingredients were unpleasant to handle (poultry offal, meat meal) or were of dubious value (at one time poultry litter was being heat-treated and pelleted for use in feeds - chickens being rather inefficient and a lot of the nutrition passing straight through).

Because of the regulations that banned the feeding of mammalian proteins back to mammals the old slops bucket became a problem - because it typically contained a mixture of animal and vegetable. A DEFRA spot-check identifying meat proteins in the feeding trough would be a major problem for the owner of the pigs.

It will be interesting whether swill or AD will win this argument.. AD is making massive strides at the moment and isn't too fussy about the feedstock.



OK ,George,I didn't want to get into this,but I'm an ex-pigman,so here are the facts:The 2000\2001 F&M outbreak source, was narrowed down to some s------d git in Devon who moved sheep up and down the UK( I'm not sure why anyone would do that,unless of course they were claiming subsidys in 2 separate places,but I'm sure that's not the case in this instance).He was found to have kept these animals in a barn with many pigs and other livestock all together.(illegally)They were fed on swill,although he was UNLICENCED.Anyone who's a farmer, rather than a livestock haulier(I've done both) would know this is insanity.
Obviously swill that's not been boiled for long enough can potentially be a risk.

As a result DEFRA and the feed conglomerates got the excuse they were looking for,and swill was banned.(interestingly the guy in question got £1mill plus in compo,funny old world innit?)

ps.the next F&M out break, 2004 ish, came as a result of total incompetence at DEFRA's own Laboratory in Surrey.......sadly,they haven't been banned.

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Re: The Pig Idea

Post: #263373 Mustardseedmama
Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:38 pm

It's going to come to these same types of regs here in the states too---watch and see if it doesn't. Just because NAIS wasn't implemented doesn't mean it wont be in the future; it'll be brought in under the radar, or some huge "meat-disaster" will occur, and then obviously it will simply have to be done!

Common sense is dead.
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Re: The Pig Idea

Post: #263375 GeorgeSalt
Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:39 pm

oldjerry wrote:OK ,George,I didn't want to get into this


oldjerry, you don't mention BSE, where there is doubt as to the efficacy of heat treatment to denature the causative agent. None of the sampling that was done in the feed industry concerned F&M, it was entirely looking for mammalian proteins in response to the BSE crisis. It was the impact of BSE that had the greatest effect on feed compounding. F&M just had us wasting out time spraying wheels to look good to the public.

Mustardseedmama - if the FDA ban the use of growth hormones in US beef and dairy cattle then I will consider eating US reared beef. As it stands I'd prefer not to.

Boboff - AD = anaerobic digestion, seems to be taking off as fast as someone can dig a pit at the moment. It's pretty much the case that if it composts they can use it and there are legally defined standards for the processing of animal by-products in these biogas plants.
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Re: The Pig Idea

Post: #263378 oldjerry
Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:58 am

I just wanted to outline the events that led to the ban.Doubtless other justifications followed.The BSE thing is interesting,Licenced Swill feeders largely separated meat from the swill and boiled it for a set time this had been going on for generations long before any BSE.I'm getting on a bit and senility and alcohol are having their inevitable effect,but wasn't the cause of BSE found to be the use of dead sheep in proprietory animal feed?
Others, more scientific and learned than I, will elaborate on the doubts over linkage between BSE and Variant CJD(which if I recall was going to finish us all off by 2050)but the fact remains that for generations pig keepers had been keeping healthy,well-fed pigs on the waste food in their locality which now has to be dealt with at massive expense to you and I by the the latest shareholders favourite,the Waste Industry.

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Re: The Pig Idea

Post: #263379 boboff
Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:55 am

Thomzo wrote:

Salmonella shouldn't be taken lightly, it can be at best serious and fatal for the vulnerable.

Zoe



To me this is like saying You shouldn't run with knives, it is both true and totally random, as what can it possibly have to do with feeding pigs food from my kitchen?

Jerry and George are chatting about stuff I know nothing about, so I'll argue with you Zoe instead!

Not really.

It is interesting to note the objections even to the idea of feeding a couple of pigs at home scraps, I still think it's complete Bull Plop, but then I didn't know what AD was!
Millymollymandy wrote:Bloody smilies, always being used. I hate them and they should be banned.
No I won't use a smiley because I've decided to turn into Boboff, as he's turned all nice all of a sudden. Grumble grumble.

http://boboffs.blogspot.co.uk/

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Re: The Pig Idea

Post: #263387 GeorgeSalt
Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:55 am

oldjerry wrote:I just wanted to outline the events that led to the ban.Doubtless other justifications followed.The BSE thing is interesting,Licenced Swill feeders largely separated meat from the swill and boiled it for a set time this had been going on for generations long before any BSE.I'm getting on a bit and senility and alcohol are having their inevitable effect,but wasn't the cause of BSE found to be the use of dead sheep in proprietory animal feed?


Although I've heard a few interesting tales about the animal feed industry*, feeding dead sheep into the process on a regular basis would not be pleasant or practical. The link was made to meat and bone meal (MBM) containing pretty much everything prior to the restrictions that required the removal of specifief materials (brain, spinal chord, etc). MBM wasn't seperated by species, and the controls over the processing of it were not strictly enforced. I was working in a completely non-ruminant mill (poultry and pig feed only) so all of this was mostly happening elsewhere and we were only getting caught up in the cross-fire. I have heard very sound arguments as to why the blanket restrictions were not needed for pigs or poultry, but many mills in the UK were mixed ruminant/monogastric and it all fell into the "peanuts are not used in this kitchen" scenario. It cost the meat industry a lot of additional cost on the feed bill. The waste industry did get an initial boost, but alternative disposal routes have now been found for most of this material. Combustion for energy generation and biogas via AD being prominent at the moment.


* the animal feed industry is currently well regulated and when I left still had a strong internal drive for high standards and quality (bacterilogical standards for animal feed compounding were at one time higher than for meat processing), however there were some incredibly shady characters about just outside the periphery of the main compounders that were looking to make a fast buck with practices that were a little questionable as to the letter of the law but definitely broke the spirit of the law.
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Re: The Pig Idea

Post: #263390 Green Aura
Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:14 am

Many years ago, prior to the BSE debacle, we were invited to a barbecue at a colleague's farm.

Her husband had some health issues and so had stopped farming and had to modify his work. We had a wander round the farm buildings and found this huge shed that was open on one side to the elements. It was full, almost to the roof with biscuits, vegetables, sheets of ribs, bacon and other less identifiable cuts of meat and who knows what else. There were huge patches of mould and swarms of bluebottles and stank to high heaven.

When we asked what it was we were told it was his new job. He bought all the out of date, rotten foodstuffs from all the nearby farms, shops, restaurants etc and processed it into some sort of cattle cake.

Needless to say I didn't eat much off the barbie! And I didn't eat beef for ages after that and was not in the least surprised about BSE. I'm afraid it was practices like that that led to the OTT legislation, letting the agro-chemical lot in.
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