un-vaccinated children

Any issues with what nappies to buy, home schooling etc. In fact if you have kids or are planning to this is the section for you.
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demi
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un-vaccinated children

Post: #252728 demi
Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:00 pm

i was just on another site and there was a discussion on wither or not to vaccinate your kids.

warning, ranting is imminant!

this really makes me mad!

how can any one be so irrisponcible and endanger their childs life by refusing to get them vaccinated! this should be illegal!!!
vaccines are the reason we live in a relativly desease free society today.
diseases can be irradicated compleatly through mass vaccination.
when people refuse to get vaccinated this creates a weak point that the virus takes full advantage of as it dives in there, all guns blazing, and reproduces like crazy as its life litterally depends on it, thus causing outbreaks of diseases like measals which only a few years ago we were on the brink of wiping out before the media so wrongly caused a pannic by inventing a link between the vaccine and autism.

the government wouldnt issue vaccines that were dangerous. any side effects caused by a vaccine is nothing complared to the ill effects of the actual life threatning disease it is protecting you against.

another thing is 'homeopathic' so called vaccines. there is no possible way any homeopathic sugar pill can give you any form of protection against malaria, which is somthing they were advertising. homeopathy is a scam to get your money!!!! it works no better than a placebo, which works no batter than sheer chance.

aaaahhhh it makes me so mad!!!!!

if you refuse to vaccinate your child then you are leaving him unprotected against DEADLY diseases and you are also allowiing these diseases to continue to spread and infect and kill other people. why would anyone be so stupid!!! :banghead:
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'If you just close your eyes and block your ears, to the acumulated knowlage of the last 2000 years,
then morally guess what your off the hook, and thank Christ you only have to read one book'

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Re: un-vaccinated children

Post: #252730 oldjerry
Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:57 pm

I had measles,mumps ,rubella etc when I was a child,as did practically all the other children at my school,it was just the way it was.Nobody I ever knew died from them.I can remember being vaccinated against smallpox,diptheria etc,and they WERE deadly,and I expect have now been eradicated(I wouldn't know,I'm not a doctor.)I'm aware that theBMA\Pharmaceutical industry has produced some figures showing the number of children that die as a result of measles(when the serious diseases are wiped out,they still have new products to sell),but given that in excess of 300 children lose their lives every year in UK road accidents,more lives would be spared(at no cost) simply by lowering the speed limit,but then that would fall foul of other powerful lobbies.
We were hounded to death for refusing the MMR for our children(actually on the grounds of it's possible links to bowel disease,I've got Crohn's) The authorities clearly weren't that concerned for the children's wellbeing,as I offered to have them recieve each vaccine separatley but they refused this, although it was general practice on the continent,in the end I imported the vaccine myself and our GP administered it.

So I guess you'd consider us pretty stupid,and I've no defence against that,but I'm old enough to remember the Thalidomide affair,and besides,they're my kids, I, and only I, have their best interests as my sole motivation,and I'll bring them up as I see fit.

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Re: un-vaccinated children

Post: #252731 demi
Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:19 pm

polio, measles and diptheria are all on the brink of extinction though vaccination. all are deadly diseases and all are able to reoccur if people do not get vaccinated against them.
smallpox, another deadly disease, has already been sucsessfully wiped out through vaccination.
polio is non existant in the developed world and was almost wiped out globaly but some idiot in africa started spreading rumers that america was spreading the AIDS virus through vaccines causing mothers to not vaccinate their kids, allowing futher outbreaks of the disease to occur.

the fact is that if you choose not the get vaccinated you are not only endangering your life but also the life of others in your society.

we have the technology to wipe out almost all diseases in the world but its impossible carry out manditory mass vaccination of the entire world population. at least it is easier to do it within the uk, if only people would take responsibility .
Tim Minchin - The Good Book
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kr1I3mBojc0

'If you just close your eyes and block your ears, to the acumulated knowlage of the last 2000 years,
then morally guess what your off the hook, and thank Christ you only have to read one book'

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Re: un-vaccinated children

Post: #252742 gregorach
Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:50 am

oldjerry wrote:I had measles,mumps ,rubella etc when I was a child,as did practically all the other children at my school,it was just the way it was.Nobody I ever knew died from them.


Emphasis added. I don't personally know anyone who's died in a car crash, but I'm not about to conclude that car crashes are safe on that basis.

oldjerry wrote:We were hounded to death for refusing the MMR for our children(actually on the grounds of it's possible links to bowel disease,I've got Crohn's)


You do know that turned out the be completely fraudulent, right? As in, not just mistaken, but actually fraudulent, with deliberately falsified data and large sums of money involved? Obviously you couldn't have known that at the the time...
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Re: un-vaccinated children

Post: #252751 Lost-in-the-Day
Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:49 am

demi wrote:how can any one be so irrisponcible and endanger their childs life by refusing to get them vaccinated! this should be illegal!!!

If it were made illegal I would be tempted to move country. I'm not saying I'm against any and all vaccinations but there are a few vaccinations which I don't think are necessary, such as flu for example which many pregnant women are pressured into having. It should be up to the individual parent whether or not their children have vaccinations.

demi wrote:vaccines are the reason we live in a relativly desease free society today.
diseases can be irradicated compleatly through mass vaccination.

That maybe true, but I am a great believer in natural selection. I know that not many people (that I've come across) feel the same way I do but I shudder at the idea of a completely disease free world. There are already far too many people populating the earth and if myself or a member of my family is a victum of disease then so be it. And as you say, our lives are relatively disease free so the odds of actually contracting one of these fatal diseases is reduced.

demi wrote:another thing is 'homeopathic' so called vaccines. there is no possible way any homeopathic sugar pill can give you any form of protection against malaria, which is somthing they were advertising. homeopathy is a scam to get your money!!!! it works no better than a placebo, which works no batter than sheer chance.

If that is what people wish to use then again it is up to them. True there maybe no magical malaria protection in a sugar pill but there are many natural food stuffs that can help to lessen your chances of getting ill, a famous one being that lots of oranges (or other fruit) and a bit of exercise prevents the common cold. Homopathy is an extension of that and while I don't think I personally would use homopathy if other people wish to use it then that is their choice.

demi wrote:if you refuse to vaccinate your child then you are leaving him unprotected against DEADLY diseases and you are also allowiing these diseases to continue to spread and infect and kill other people. why would anyone be so stupid!!! :banghead:

I would. Because it is my choice. Other people are only at risk if they too have decided not to get vaccinated and again it is their choice. In my opinion it is always up to the parent whether they want their child to recieve vaccinations. If they want to vaccinate them then great, if they don't then that's great too.
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Re: un-vaccinated children

Post: #252752 oldjerry
Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:04 pm

Well I think in terms of theautism thing you may be right,the Crohn's and colitus charities might not all agree with you as far as the bowel disease goes.Anyhow,thatisn't really my point,I was simply pointing out 1) that maybe there is a vested interest in promotion of certain vaccines (otherwise why isn't everyone offered a flu jab,plenty of sickly children and adults die of that,wouldn't be expensive by anychance?)
2)I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea that everybody should be forced to do something'for the good of the herd'.
3)There certainly are large sums of money involved,and recent and past history show the pharmaceutical industry are themselves hardly paragons of virtue in this respect.
4)The govt\red top inspired vilification of parents who are audacious enough to question the percieved wisdom with terms such as 'stupidity' and' irresponsibility', smacks of Maoist China.

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Re: un-vaccinated children

Post: #252754 demi
Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:12 pm

Lost-in-the-Day wrote:
demi wrote:another thing is 'homeopathic' so called vaccines. there is no possible way any homeopathic sugar pill can give you any form of protection against malaria, which is somthing they were advertising. homeopathy is a scam to get your money!!!! it works no better than a placebo, which works no batter than sheer chance.

If that is what people wish to use then again it is up to them. True there maybe no magical malaria protection in a sugar pill but there are many natural food stuffs that can help to lessen your chances of getting ill, a famous one being that lots of oranges (or other fruit) and a bit of exercise prevents the common cold. Homopathy is an extension of that and while I don't think I personally would use homopathy if other people wish to use it then that is their choice.


the above paragragh is supposed to be within quotation from lost-in-the-day



for a start, homeopathy is not an extention of a healthy diet and excersise. fruit and veg contain essential vitamins and mineralls needed by our bodies to be healthy. homeopathic pills contain nothing but a water droplet on a sugar pill, somthing that has no physical benifits whatsoever on your body. it only works as well as a placibo in that if you believe it will make you better then theres a small chance you might feel better for a while. usually though you would have just gotten better on your own anyway, but your brain is wrongly connecting getting better with taking the homeopathic remady.

'Post hoc ergo propter hoc' which is latin for ' after this therefor because of this' where you assume B happened because of A, purly because B came after A, when in fact they are unrealated.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kr1I3mBojc0

'If you just close your eyes and block your ears, to the acumulated knowlage of the last 2000 years,
then morally guess what your off the hook, and thank Christ you only have to read one book'

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Re: un-vaccinated children

Post: #252755 gregorach
Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:19 pm

oldjerry wrote:Well I think in terms of theautism thing you may be right,the Crohn's and colitus charities might not all agree with you as far as the bowel disease goes.Anyhow,thatisn't really my point,I was simply pointing out 1) that maybe there is a vested interest in promotion of certain vaccines (otherwise why isn't everyone offered a flu jab,plenty of sickly children and adults die of that,wouldn't be expensive by anychance?)
2)I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea that everybody should be forced to do something'for the good of the herd'.
3)There certainly are large sums of money involved,and recent and past history show the pharmaceutical industry are themselves hardly paragons of virtue in this respect.
4)The govt\red top inspired vilification of parents who are audacious enough to question the percieved wisdom with terms such as 'stupidity' and' irresponsibility', smacks of Maoist China.


Andrew Wakefield was personally paid £435,643 in fees, plus £3,910 expenses, by lawyers fighting (and losing) "vaccine injury" cases, when he fabricated the data showing a link between MMR and bowel disease. No other researcher has ever managed to find any indication of any such link, and when his original data was re-examined, it did not actually contain any evidence for such a link. He made it up.

Nobody is a paragon of virtue here, but as far as I can see, only one side has gone so far as to actually fabricate data in return for cold hard cash. Yes, the pharmaceutical industry has many faults, but that doesn't change the fact the Wakefield is a flat-out money-grubbing fraud, and that children have died as a result.
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Re: un-vaccinated children

Post: #252756 demi
Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:26 pm

oldjerry wrote:Well I think in terms of theautism thing you may be right,the Crohn's and colitus charities might not all agree with you as far as the bowel disease goes.Anyhow,thatisn't really my point,I was simply pointing out 1) that maybe there is a vested interest in promotion of certain vaccines (otherwise why isn't everyone offered a flu jab,plenty of sickly children and adults die of that,wouldn't be expensive by anychance?)
2)I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea that everybody should be forced to do something'for the good of the herd'.
3)There certainly are large sums of money involved,and recent and past history show the pharmaceutical industry are themselves hardly paragons of virtue in this respect.
4)The govt\red top inspired vilification of parents who are audacious enough to question the percieved wisdom with terms such as 'stupidity' and' irresponsibility', smacks of Maoist China.







its true is does come down to money when the government are deciding which vaccines to give, but it allso comes down to which diseases are of most risk.
they are no longer giving the BCG vaccine for teberculossis in the UK as there hasnt been a case of teberculossis in dacades. my 4 year old daughter got the BCG when she was born as my husband's macedonian and they were on the 'risk list'. but by the time my 7 month old son was born macedonia wasnt on the list anymore so ne never recieved it ( much to my disapproval )
my point being that through mass school vaccines, in the uk and streaching abroad as far as eastern europe where much of the medical system leaves a lot to be desired for, teberculossis is rare enough to the point of it no longer being viable to vaccinate people any more.
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'If you just close your eyes and block your ears, to the acumulated knowlage of the last 2000 years,
then morally guess what your off the hook, and thank Christ you only have to read one book'

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Re: un-vaccinated children

Post: #252758 oldjerry
Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:39 pm

Well Gregorach, he should have been banged up.1 crook may have duped a lot of people,but concentrating on this one case doesn't persuade me of the virtue of all mass medication any morethan the performance of the Distillers Company doesn't form an arguement AGAINST taking painkillers.

2,3 and 4 aren't for me mere sophistry,I really believe them.

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Re: un-vaccinated children

Post: #252763 Odsox
Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:55 pm

I too had mumps, measles and whooping cough when I was a child, plus getting natural immunity for TB through exposure to others that were infected, it was all part and parcel of childhood.
I have no opinion either way as to the efficacy or safety of the triple vaccine as it didn't apply to me when it came out, but I DO have an opinion regarding thoughts like ...
demi wrote:how can any one be so irrisponcible and endanger their childs life by refusing to get them vaccinated! this should be illegal!!!

This may well have good intentions and perhaps written without too much thought, but to my mind this is only one step away from eugenics and other far right sentiments.
Tony

Disclaimer: I almost certainly haven't a clue what I'm talking about.

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Re: un-vaccinated children

Post: #252764 demi
Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:05 pm

Odsox wrote:I too had mumps, measles and whooping cough when I was a child, plus getting natural immunity for TB through exposure to others that were infected, it was all part and parcel of childhood.
I have no opinion either way as to the efficacy or safety of the triple vaccine as it didn't apply to me when it came out, but I DO have an opinion regarding thoughts like ...
demi wrote:how can any one be so irrisponcible and endanger their childs life by refusing to get them vaccinated! this should be illegal!!!

This may well have good intentions and perhaps written without too much thought, but to my mind this is only one step away from eugenics and other far right sentiments.




it wouldnt have to be illegal if parents took responcibility and kept up to date with their childrens vaccines.
obviously there not going to make it illegal.
still i stand by somewhate radical statment.
and id like to add the homeopathy should also be made illegal as people have actually died from refusing to go to a real doctor and instead only taking homeopathic treatment.
Tim Minchin - The Good Book
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kr1I3mBojc0

'If you just close your eyes and block your ears, to the acumulated knowlage of the last 2000 years,
then morally guess what your off the hook, and thank Christ you only have to read one book'

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Re: un-vaccinated children

Post: #252766 gregorach
Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:20 pm

oldjerry wrote:Well Gregorach, he should have been banged up.


Sadly, scientific fraud isn't actually a crime. He's now making a healthy living in the USA, still peddling his nonsense.

oldjerry wrote:1 crook may have duped a lot of people,but concentrating on this one case doesn't persuade me of the virtue of all mass medication


Is anybody actually trying to persuade of the the virtue of all "mass medication" though? Vaccines with excellent safety and efficacy records != "all mass medication".

Odsox wrote:
demi wrote:how can any one be so irrisponcible and endanger their childs life by refusing to get them vaccinated! this should be illegal!!!

This may well have good intentions and perhaps written without too much thought, but to my mind this is only one step away from eugenics and other far right sentiments.


Well, there is actually an interesting question here: at what point does the withholding of medical treatment, including preventative treatment, cross the line into child abuse? I'm not a huge fan of the idea of the state mandating medical decisions over the heads of parents, but I'm also not a huge fan of the idea that parents have carte blanche to mistreat their children in any way they like. The question is how to strike an appropriate balance... And with the issue of vaccination, it's further complicated by the fact that these decisions also affect other people - there have been a number of cases where children suffering from immune disorders (and who therefore cannot be vaccinated) have died as a result of preventable infections transmitted by unvaccinated individuals. Where does the balance of rights lie in such a case?

I have to admit, I may be somewhat biased - a close friend of mine very nearly died from chickenpox as an adult, having contracted it via contact with an unvaccinated child.
Cheers

Dunc

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Re: un-vaccinated children

Post: #252772 fifi folle
Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:44 pm

I am personally in favour of immunisations. Imagine how you would feel if your daughter experienced a miscarriage because you chose not to immunise them against measles, or your grandchild was born with a heart defect because you opted out of rubella immunisation for her. Or if your son caught mumps and had his fertility compromised? I know these are extreme cases but I'm trying to illustrate the longer term effects of choices you make for your child. Not to mention the risks to others in society.

Being a parent is really difficult but if I can protect my son from experiencing illness which could have long term effects, I will.

That's my choice, other people can make their own.

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Re: un-vaccinated children

Post: #252775 julie_lanteri
Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:52 pm

I too have survived from measles, mumps, chicken pox, toxoplasmosis etc. Apart from that, I've rarely been off school or work, no allergies ect. That's why we have an immune system. Of course, vaccination for serious deseases is paramount, so is protecting people with low immunity. but mass vaccination for the sake of it? no thanks, it's up to the parents to EDUCATE themselves and make an informed decision. I think you will find that the parents who refuse vaccination have probably done more research and thought it through more than parents who would be ready to give whatever to their child if there was a minute risk. Cold vaccine, anyone?

I think it is a bit naïve to think tht the government have got our health as number 1 priority. let's make that n°2, with money as n°1... or maybe 3, social pressure should go somewhere up there too.
A few years ago, after the Jane Goody story, started the mass vacciantion of teenage girls. You know what? they thought they were getting vaccinated against CANCER in general!!! (I know, I was form tutor of a year7/8 group on year 1 of the campain). Well, not really, they were getting vaccinated against an STI that they wouldn't catch with protected sex. Thanks for the misinformation. And let's not talk about the fact that nobody know what the effects are going to be in 10, 20, 30 years time. That's the kind of vaccination I'm worried about, the "fashion" vaccine.
That's how it works in the medical world: one day, you should be taking this and that because it's super important, a few years later the campain stops because they realise it wasn't helping, or worse... Vaccines are evolving as they find out side effects or simply new information. I just don't want to be one of the beta testers... and even less feel pressured by people who don't know any more than I do!


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