Selfsufficientish.com

boboff wrote:You, the state and no one else should be able to tell a parent that there beliefs are wrong, this, oh I don't believe I am going to say this, is not some Nazi dictatorship! *sorry.

I don't believe you said that either. Insisting on some sort of minimal factual accuracy in home education does not a "Nazi dictatorship" make. That's absurd.

There's a big difference between moral beliefs and empirical facts.

I haven't been around a lot lately, because I was starting to believe this really wasn't the place for me. Now I am QUITE CERTAIN.

Thank you all for the useful information I have been able to glean on this sight regarding "self" sufficientcy". I am a Christian, but I have tried very hard not to "offend" anyone here who doesn't share my beliefs by talking about them. I have noted that there is an awful lot of "Christian-Bashing" here, by people who didn't seem to care (indeed seemed to relish the idea of offending Christians).

So now I will take my leave, so that I can "mentally abuse" my child with Christian Devotions,...before I take her to our church-run school for a long day of having her brain stuffed with "utter nonsense",...like algebra, biology, language, and social studies....

(just so we're on the same page here----the screen door did not hit me while I was on my way out)

The only ideas I'm calling "utter nonsense" here are the notions that the Earth is 6000 years old, and that the Loch Ness Monster really exists and disproves evolution. If that's bashing Christians, well... I honestly don't know what to say. These ideas are certainly not held by any Christians I've ever met, and I'm pretty sure there's no mention of Nessie in The Bible.

[quote="Mustardseedmama"]I haven't been around a lot lately, because I was starting to believe this really wasn't the place for me. Now I am QUITE CERTAIN.

Thank you all for the useful information I have been able to glean on this sight regarding "self" sufficientcy". I am a Christian, but I have tried very hard not to "offend" anyone here who doesn't share my beliefs by talking about them. I have noted that there is an awful lot of "Christian-Bashing" here, by people who didn't seem to care (indeed seemed to relish the idea of offending Christians).

So now I will take my leave.

That's a pity MSM. there are quite a few people on this forum who view things from a Christian perspective.I'm sure you are quite capable of standing your corner,and to be honest,I'm not sure there is an 'awful lot' of Christian bashing,and certainly no more than there is socialist\capitalst\Statist\science bashing.The forum can be quite robust,but overwhelmingly,nobody wishes to offend.The Self-sufficiency thing is,( for so many,a nd I suspect for you too) not just a hobby,but a stance,and people come to it from a variety of directions and beliefs and sometimes this does create tension.However,we all share a lot in common,I for one have learnt a great deal from people who are quite a lot different from me.
For food preservation's sake RETHINK!!.........

You stallwarts of debate forget though that you might be able to prove the bible is false, but, some people have faith, and that faith means they believe what they believe.

You then proceeded to state that Teaching this is abuse.

I will restate that a belief that other beliefs are wrong, and unless you stick to what you believe without thought for others belief is the same thing the Nasi's did. I know that is escolatory, but I happen to believe it, and stated it before you pissed of Mustard Mama, who I happen to think is very nice, & funny, and she couldn't have been forcing her beliefs on us, as I had no idea!

I also know now arguing with Dunc is a waste of time, as he has never ever ever been wrong, not only just a little bit! Which is nice!

You're literally calling me a Nazi, solely on the grounds that I think science lessons should be required to have some basis in fact, and somehow I'm the bad guy? OK, I quit. Enjoy your fact-free world of total epistemic relativism, just don't ask me to fix your computer.

Woah, just one minute Ya big Jessie.

I said insisting that children not be home educated, IF they are being taught christian values, and beliefs, and that believing that you had some moral and intellectual superiority over others sufficient to descibe this practice as ABUSE, was a belief similar to those doctrines and practices of the Nasi's. i.e. they had a belief, and if other chose different FOR WHAT EVER REASON, they were wrong, which is what you were saying.

I did not say you were a Nasi.

As for the rest of it Dunc, what ever, you choose, I have no axe to grind, I don't care what you believe or do, as it does not effect me, and therefore I can just LET YOU BE.................

boboff wrote:Woah, just one minute Ya big Jessie.

I said insisting that children not be home educated, IF they are being taught christian values, and beliefs, and that believing that you had some moral and intellectual superiority over others sufficient to descibe this practice as ABUSE, was a belief similar to those doctrines and practices of the Nasi's. i.e. they had a belief, and if other chose different FOR WHAT EVER REASON, they were wrong, which is what you were saying.

No, that is very definitely not what I am saying. Please re-read my comments in this thread a little more carefully. What I am saying is that, in subjects dealing with empirical matters (such as science), there must be some minimal standards of factual accuracy required.

Teach your kids whatever moral values you like. Heck, if you want to teach them the literal truth of the Resurrection as part of their religious education, knock yourself out. But if you claim to be teaching them science, then you don't get to teach them that the existence of the Loch Ness Monster disproves evolution, or that the Earth is only 6000 years old, or that the value of pi is exactly 3.

Some subjects deal with facts, and you don't get to make up your own.

You don't have children do you?

Don't patronise me, and tell me to read your words of wisdom again. You already tried that condesending tactic earlier in the thread.

You can not, and must not ever, be able to dicatate what a Mother teaches her Son in a science lesson at home. If she chooses to teach the son that God created man, and the world and Jesus died to save us, then who the hell are you to say she is abusing her child.

Yes you are really clever, and know this for a fact.... NOT to be true, but to dictate that it's wrong that a Mother can choose to teach her son a reality for her, based on her faith, and is as real for her as your belief in science, is Utter Utter Utter dogmatic condescending BS.

I am not arguing what is right and what is wrong from a science and Christian stand point, BUT what I will protect with every bone in my body is that womans right to choose to teach her offspring what ever she damm well pleases.


To do anything other than that is to open up all faiths, creeds, religions and societies to the rule of Dunc over the education of their children, and I for one do not, and can not, ever except that.

Now is that clear enough for you????????????????????? I was very carefull...........

Some beliefs deal with faith, and you don't get proof, deal with it.

I give up. I really do.

For Dawkins sake!............. get a cold beer everyone and chill out.

On reflection I needed to clarify a couple of things;

1. I do not believe that Jesus rode a dinosaur ("duh!")
2. I do not believe in the LNM.
3. I do not believe in evolution. I've never seen proof that an amoeba somehow magically formed in a puddle and the mysteries of evolution somehow took care of all the rest...therefore evolution is a THEORY. One that my child has learned about, and dismisses (she's an intelligent girl!) as a theory.

As for the textbooks using LNM as "proof" that evolution is a lie, I haven't seen anything like that either, but I do know that textbook publishers are chosen by our local governments based on whether they are willing to revise (leave out important facts, twist the truth--especially about history!--and present materials in an ever more liberal-leaning way) what is taught to public school children.

Children here in the States, especially in this little burg, are much more likely to be abused AT SCHOOL than at home, not by teachers, but by fellow students. The public school system is not the only way to monitor the welfare of children, nor is it the best way (opinion--not fact)

I don't disparage others for their beliefs with sarcasm or innuendo. I used to be an atheist myself, for many years. If my beliefs now are wrong, and I teach those beliefs to my child, as long as I also provide a good education to her with regard to the subjects she needs to live a productive life (facts--not theories), I have hurt no-one.

I have been gently taken to task for being too thin-skinned by a kind friend. Thank you for that. I enjoy this board, and it was childish of me to say I was leaving because I felt my faith was being insulted. (Edited for spelling)

I'm very glad you're not leaving MSM. I appreciate that I can be somewhat abrasive at times, and it was never my intention to insult anyone. I really do apologise if I've upset you. I'm not going to get into any further argument on the specifics.

"I appreciate that I can be somewhat abrasive at times,"

Well then, we have something in common now don't we? (I can too!).

Thankyou.

Jerry I am on a diet and off the beer, trying to give up fags as well as starting a no Carb diet.

You've made me question now whether it's making me a tad argumentative!

Well, thats all I needed to go get me some ice cold blackthorn cider, a fag and some chips to calm me down! Thank you!

Anyway, we all have different opinions, which is nice.

(just in case it doesn't read as such I am joking about falling of the wagon etc, as I really don't feel grumpy in the slightest)