I think I'll.......

[pelmetman]

Pelmetman - If very strong 'justice' systems, corporal punishments, the death penalty and the like work, why do countries like America and especially the middle and far east have such problems with criminality, violence, civil unrest and the like?? And conversely those countries with more liberal regimes AND good economies (i.e. more money, better shared) have lower crime rates like Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland and Japan? Does this not lead to the conclusion that these ideas of punishment do not work?

My point was not so much about our justice system, but about instilling a sense of right and wrong into kids at an early age, which seems to me the most basic building block from where to start a child's upbringing.

As for the justice system, that's been more on the side of the criminal fraternity than the victims for years .............And no I don't have a problem with capital punishment either, especially with the advances in DNA the chance of a miss carriage of justice is negligible..........I can see no point in keeping people like Levi Bellfield in comfort for the rest of his years

[Thomzo]

Rather sad e-mail doing the rounds:

New logo for the London Olympics

[baldybloke]

Can we get a possitive ID on that fellow. He seems to be the ringleader. Sorry for that but I couldn't resist.

[SouthernDave]

[grahamhobbs]

[quote="pelmetman")

My point was not so much about our justice system, but about instilling a sense of right and wrong into kids at an early age, which seems to me the most basic building block from where to start a child's upbringing......[/quote]

Pelmetman did you have corporal punishment at your school, did it teach you right and wrong. It only taught me to disrespect those teachers that used it and to question all authority.

[Big Al]

[quote="pelmetman")

My point was not so much about our justice system, but about instilling a sense of right and wrong into kids at an early age, which seems to me the most basic building block from where to start a child's upbringing......

Pelmetman did you have corporal punishment at your school, did it teach you right and wrong. It only taught me to disrespect those teachers that used it and to question all authority.[/quote]


I've not read this topic but this bit I can answer this bit.

We had corpral punishment in the form of a gym shoe across the arse or for serious disgresions a hocky stick.

I was more scared of what my mother would do if she found out I'd been slippered or even sticked as she would say " well you must have deserved it " and then she would lay into me with her fists....

Of course the old cow is burning in hell now.....

[pelmetman]

[quote="pelmetman")

My point was not so much about our justice system, but about instilling a sense of right and wrong into kids at an early age, which seems to me the most basic building block from where to start a child's upbringing......

Pelmetman did you have corporal punishment at your school, did it teach you right and wrong. It only taught me to disrespect those teachers that used it and to question all authority.[/quote]

I never had the cane .........But in Junior school "Monkey Moore", picked me up and hurled me across the classroom for talking in class ...........It worked I never spoke out of place in his class again
I've lost count of the times I was hit with a well aimed blackboard rubber, no doubt a skill long since lost by the teaching profession

As for learning right from wrong, like Big Al I learn't that from the hands of my mother .........We never told her if we had been told off at school because we would get another dressing down or a belt from her.

One little example of how we learn't right from wrong ............My older brother was brought home by the police once, for nicking sweets, which is somewhat ironic as we had a sweet shop in front of our hairdressers ...........today a child psychologist would call it "pushing the boundaries" ..........The police said they wouldn't press charges as it was a first offence............My mother thanked the policeman and marched my brother upstairs to the 2 bed flat where the 6 of us lived, and got him in the kitchen and started belting the living daylights out of him ..........Our mum was 5 foot nothing just skin and bone, my brother a little taller but well built as he used to work out, but he was terrified as were the rest of us kids .......My old man said nothing, discipline was always mums job

After a while she sprained her wrist beating my brother............did she stop........no.......she got hold of him with her good hand and started kicking him
Eventually she was exhausted and all us kids run and hid in the bedroom ..................None of us were ever brought home by the police again

Did school discipline make me question their authority?...........No......my beef with school was that they were only interested in the academic kids, so by the time I was 14 I was wasting my time ........I'm with Digby Jones .....I would allow kids like me to leave at 14 and get an apprenticeship or any other job

[SouthernDave]

With no sense of irony, you have defeated your own arguments in one post.

Your mother dished out physical punishments, so did your school. It didn't stop your brother stealing from a shop and as you got whacked 'countless times' neither did it cure you of talking or messing about in class.

So despite the physical threats and dire consequences, both you and your brother still misbehaved to the point of theft. The deterrent didn't work did it? Neither does it work with adults and the state.

[grahamhobbs]

My parents never hit us kids but we respected them and certainly didn't want to provoke my dad's ire. At school, regular beatings with the cane, taught us to shut up, but as a class we also learnt passive resistance, stand together and all shut up together, act dumb. If the teacher asked a question, no one knew the answer, no one responded. Do that for a lesson and it could break a teacher, despite all his threats.
If we look at history, we've hung 'em and flogged 'em, but did it work, no, and it wasn't 'liberals' that got rid of these practices.

[MKG]

As I've resigned from this thread, this is obviously not me posting but an automatic response agent usurping my signature.

Pelmetman said "It worked I never spoke out of place in his class again".

Pelmetman said "None of us were ever brought home by the police again".

SouthernDave said "The deterrent didn't work did it?"

No comment.

Mike

[pelmetman]

As I've resigned from this thread, this is obviously not me posting but an automatic response agent usurping my signature.

Pelmetman said "It worked I never spoke out of place in his class again".

Pelmetman said "None of us were ever brought home by the police again".

SouthernDave said "The deterrent didn't work did it?"

No comment.

Mike

......................Southern Dave ........with logic like yours you should be a politician

I think the point I was trying to make is that for a lot of kids this kind of discipline worked.............threat of the naughty step wouldn't

[SouthernDave]

As I've resigned from this thread, this is obviously not me posting but an automatic response agent usurping my signature.

Pelmetman said "It worked I never spoke out of place in his class again".

Pelmetman said "None of us were ever brought home by the police again".

SouthernDave said "The deterrent didn't work did it?"

No comment.

Mike

Welcome back!

I said the deterrent didn't work, which it didn't. Both must have know the consequences of their actions BEFORE they acted, yet both acted on them anyway and took what was coming. The death penalty does not stop murderers, prison doesn't seem to stop anything else either. I mean, constant arguments don't seem to stop you coming back and reading this post do they?

PMan, I know you're point and I admit to teasing a little. I also understand that your 'cure' does and can work, but I don't think it is the best option that's all. A sledgehammer will knock a screw into a bit of wood, but its not the best way of doing it.......

[pelmetman]

PMan, I know you're point and I admit to teasing a little. I also understand that your 'cure' does and can work, but I don't think it is the best option that's all. A sledgehammer will knock a screw into a bit of wood, but its not the best way of doing it.......

Agreed..................but its pretty obvious the naughty step culture has done nothing to improve the situation .....................I think the social engineers who have outlawed traditional methods have scored an own goal.......No one method will work with all kids, so parents should be allowed to use the method that works for them..............a little less paranoia about a kid getting a clip around the ear would be a start ........whether that's from the parent, police, or teachers

[SouthernDave]

Blimey, I think we can agree on that!

Perhaps its time we called 'curtains' on this issue.....?!

[pelmetman]

Yes I agree, its a nice day and everyone should be out in the garden

Well may be not Dave, we had an Indian Takeaway last night and Dave, to say the least has been ill all night and feeling fragile this morning. I have been in contact with the restaurant concerned who were most apologetic but that will be our one and only order from there

Sue