Blackouts by 2015?

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Flo
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Re: Blackouts by 2015?

Post: #267593 Flo
Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:26 pm

OOOoooooonh Okra a person after my own heart. The family has heard too often my cry for a set of insulated bolt croppers to remove a line of pylons. "Would you go back to candles?" they ask. Well having grown up at times with candles they can't frighten me with that one. :wink:

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Re: Blackouts by 2015?

Post: #267597 GeorgeSalt
Wed Oct 17, 2012 8:24 pm

okra wrote:I cannot understand people objecting to wind farms when pylons have been with us for many years and for me are much uglier


I may be odd, but I like pylons.. not enought to be a member of the Pylon Appreciation Society. Although they do have their place. Striding across the fields alongside the A10 they are benevolent four-legged relatives of the Tripods from War of the Worlds. But a line across otherwise unspoilt Highland glens or upland moors is out-of-place and ugly necessity that reflects that modern society has developed it's connurbations away from efficient sources of renewable power. And noone really wants the honesty of local power generation at realistic levels on their back doorstep.
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Re: Blackouts by 2015?

Post: #267633 dave45
Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:25 pm

Renewables are too small a player to make any difference.
Current nukes are getting old and unreliable, and new ones take 10-15 years to build, so won't make any difference.
Gas plants *are* being built, and are needed anyway to back up wind turbines.
The large combustion plant directive has been known about for a decade, and the easiest option would be to ignore it.
Given the choice between blackouts and annoying the EU - what would you do?

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Re: Blackouts by 2015?

Post: #267677 Helsbells
Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:18 pm

I used to think that Armageddon would be great and we could all go self-sufficient and live locally and everything would be wonderful, but then I realised it wouldn't be wonderful at all, it the oil/coal/gas really ran out there would be raping and looting, food shortages leading to starvation, water shortages and then a lot of disease from having to drink dirty water, a lot of people would die from illnesses that could not be cured due to lack of medicine and medical care.
It really would be terrible. Even those of use who know how to grow food, look after animals, create out own energy etc thinking we are all sorted for the Armageddon would all be killed but those who aren't prepared. We, as a people are so disconnected from how to sustain ourselves without oil/coal/gas that the thought of this country being without it is quite terrifying to me.
I really don't want it "bring it on".

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Re: Blackouts by 2015?

Post: #267678 demi
Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:15 am

okra wrote:I cannot understand people objecting to wind farms when pylons have been with us for many years and for me are much uglier



I also don't think the wind farms deserve all the bad rep they get. I feel prowd to see them, they are a beautiful, impressive feet of engineering producing clean renewable energy for everyone :iconbiggrin:

They can allways just put them all out at sea, on mountain tops and other windy uninhabited places where we can look in awe from a distance.

There's also hydro power from the waves in the sea. That's somthing which they are developing quickly at the moment.

I also saw a program on discovary science a while ago about concentrating soler energy into a mega hot lazer. They've got this gigantic mirroded salailte dish shaped structure somewhere in the desert which reflects all the suns rays through lots of mirrors, each time doubling and concentrating the strength of the sun rays and they aim all the light into a single point which is multiple times stronger than the sun and instantly incinerates anything put in its path. They then use this ray to boil water, making steam and bob's your uncle you've got electricity just from mirrors and sunlight!

I think soler energy probably has them most potantial at producing large amounts of clean energy. And technollogy will advance, even by 2015, to be more efficent and afordable to most and eventually to eveyone, with grants from the government ect. I'm quite confident they will get better at producing clean renewable energy before the fossil fules run out.
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Re: Blackouts by 2015?

Post: #267680 The Riff-Raff Element
Sun Oct 21, 2012 7:06 am

demi wrote:
I also don't think the wind farms deserve all the bad rep they get. I feel prowd to see them, they are a beautiful, impressive feet of engineering producing clean renewable energy for everyone :iconbiggrin:



Well, I wouldn't go that far, but they are less ugly than pylons.

Certainly within the limits of physics, chemistry & engineering I believe we will see a great many improvements in the efficiency of solar capture and other renewables, and we'll certainly get better at managing diffuse sources of energy to allow us to use them in more concentrated applications. There was a slightly gushing article in the Torygraph about producing petrol from air http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/fuel/9619269/British-engineers-produce-amazing-petrol-from-air-technology.html. There is actually no new technology here - it's all been done before, and the process is wildly inefficient given how much electricity is consumed - but it does serve to demonstrate how intermittent power from wind or PV could be "fixed" to give energy on demand.

I'm not convinced that as a race we will be able to enjoy the level of energy intensity that we do today in the future - we will have to become more sparing in our use.

There are a number of concentrated solar power stations already in operation: I believe that there is a 20MW plant in southern Spain, but 20MW is still not a huge power station, and the space required for the mirrors is quite substantial. I suppose Europe is quite fortunate in having the Sahara on our doorstep and I wonder if European interest in the "Arab Spring" was in any way connected with this.

Of course, if nuclear fusion can be commercialised we'll be rolling in energy, but I'm not sure it is wise to assume that this will happen. True, the amount of effort that has been put into making it work is pitiful compared to the amount invested in oil,for example, but getting sustained, controlled, fusion is proving quite a tough nut to crack. Even when it is achieved the capital requirement and engineering needed to extract the large quantities of deuterium (heavy hydrogen) from sea water will be challenging as will building the power stations themselves.

I'm not of the opinion that we are facing an Armageddon, but we will see some dramatic changes.

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Re: Blackouts by 2015?

Post: #267681 The Riff-Raff Element
Sun Oct 21, 2012 7:15 am

The Riff-Raff Element wrote:
demi wrote:
I also don't think the wind farms deserve all the bad rep they get. I feel prowd to see them, they are a beautiful, impressive feet of engineering producing clean renewable energy for everyone :iconbiggrin:



Well, I wouldn't go that far, but they are less ugly than pylons.

Certainly within the limits of physics, chemistry & engineering I believe we will see a great many improvements in the efficiency of solar capture and other renewables, and we'll certainly get better at managing diffuse sources of energy to allow us to use them in more concentrated applications. There was a slightly gushing article in the Torygraph about producing petrol from air http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/fuel/9619269/British-engineers-produce-amazing-petrol-from-air-technology.html. There is actually no new technology here - it's all been done before, and the process is wildly inefficient given how much electricity is consumed - but it does serve to demonstrate how intermittent power from wind or PV could be "fixed" to give energy on demand.

I'm not convinced that as a race we will be able to enjoy the level of energy intensity that we do today in the future - we will have to become more sparing in our use.

There are a number of concentrated solar power stations already in operation: I believe that there is a 20MW plant in southern Spain, but 20MW is still not a huge power station, and the space required for the mirrors is quite substantial. I suppose Europe is quite fortunate in having the Sahara on our doorstep and I wonder if European interest in the "Arab Spring" was in any way connected with this.

Of course, if nuclear fusion can be commercialised we'll be rolling in energy, but I'm not sure it is wise to assume that this will happen. True, the amount of effort that has been put into making it work is pitiful compared to the amount invested in oil,for example, but getting sustained, controlled, fusion is proving quite a tough nut to crack. Even when it is achieved the capital requirement and engineering needed to extract the large quantities of deuterium (heavy hydrogen) from sea water will be challenging as will building the power stations themselves.

I'm not of the opinion that we are facing an Armageddon, but we will see some dramatic changes.


EDIT - I've just been told that there are some bigger plants in Spain and the US either recently commissioned or about to be totalling about 4000 MW and about the same again in the planning stages. OK, that's not more than a fraction of the amount generated by fossil fuels, but it's still quite a lot. There is hope!

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Re: Blackouts by 2015?

Post: #267692 the.fee.fairy
Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:25 am

Helsbells, I agree.

I wish i could afford one of the 'End Of The World' shelters sometimes :cooldude:

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Re: Blackouts by 2015?

Post: #267701 merlin
Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:23 am

Using less might help the problem. I had a freind over from the uk last week. He is an electrician, he was telling me that they are looking at a normal house having to have a 100 kw supply soon. For what????
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Re: Blackouts by 2015?

Post: #267704 demi
Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:50 am

merlin wrote:Using less might help the problem. I had a freind over from the uk last week. He is an electrician, he was telling me that they are looking at a normal house having to have a 100 kw supply soon. For what????



I guess for all the technology and gadgets people have now. For example, just think about the amount of energy consuming gadgets avalible to make life easier in the kitchen. Plus all the lap tops, ebooks,TV's, DVD players, ipod's ect ect. They make gadgets for everything. And imagine what it will be like when the electric car really takes off and petrol cars become obsolite, then everyone will need a big plug socket in their garage to charge up their cars at night.
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then morally guess what your off the hook, and thank Christ you only have to read one book'

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Re: Blackouts by 2015?

Post: #267741 The Riff-Raff Element
Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:36 pm

100kW sounds a little on the high side. That's industrial scale power supply. We're on a 12kW monophase supply for our house, the gite, the pool for the gite and the semi-industrial laundry for the business. OK, we're at limit and could probably do with going up to a 15kW supply for peak usage, but 100kW?

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Re: Blackouts by 2015?

Post: #267754 merlin
Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:23 am

weird is it not? up until this week we have be on the standard 6kw, just renovated the whole place and had three phase 15 kw put in. Don't ask me why, the chap next door works for the electric board and help me with the paper work, well. Ironic really, we have had solar water heating installed and moved onto gas for cooking, I sometimes wonder about my method of thinking! Anyway, I will let you all know what my electric bill comes to after our first normal month.
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