Is it thieving or salvage

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red
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Post: #46944 red
Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:03 pm

but they are not doing it because they feel crushed by government and big business. Their motivation is greed.

Martin wrote: the point I'm trying to make is that it is government and big business that has stood us all on that slippery slope!
(who can blame a few people if they then slip?)

me. I blame them.

skip diving is a differnt matter - as this is stuff people don't want anymore - but of course the right thing to do is ask first.
somehow, I don't think the lady who has watched her possessions being strewn about the beach would have said yes.
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Post: #46945 Wombat
Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:03 pm

Cheeky! :lol:

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PS The neighbours over the road had an old bath in their skip. I wanted it for a worm farm but when I asked I found out that the renovation people got it as part of the deal. In that case if I had just taken it, it would have been stealing.
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Post: #46946 Stonehead
Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:08 pm

Martin wrote:Which brings up the crux of the matter - in a deeply amoral society, where government lies to us constantly, and actively supports companies who do the same, can you blame the public for "taking a leaf from their book"?


Yes. Just because all around you appear to be without principle or moral scruple doesn't mean you have to follow their example.
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Post: #46947 Stonehead
Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:09 pm

Martin wrote:please, don't get me wrong - "looting" is wrong, and illegal, and I don't condone it, the point I'm trying to make is that it is government and big business that has stood us all on that slippery slope! :wink:
(who can blame a few people if they then slip?)


We don't have to follow them down it. In fact, we should kick them back up it.

The situation with the ship is no different to someone driving along in their car, having a crash and seeing all the contents of their car strewn everywhere. Is it thieving or salvage when people come by, collect up all your stuff and take it away?

A big storm knocks the roof off a house, flattens the walls and strews belongings over several blocks. People come along, pick up all the best stuff and say, don't worry, you're insured and you'll get the money back. Is it thieving or salvage?
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Post: #46949 Stonehead
Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:19 pm

Wombat wrote:I quite cheerfully skip dive, but I still ask first......


Yes.
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Post: #46951 Annpan
Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:44 pm

The thing is that you know where these goods have come from so it is stealing. It would be different if a cargo of nappies had been washed up in devon last summer, would you have known where it came from? If you can see the boat from the shore, and see on the TV that the cargo belongs to this ship, or it belongs to the individuals that the ship was delivering to, like the lady who had her possestions taken.
Also these goods have not been discarded by anyone, they have been lost.

You should make reasonable attempt to re-unite people with their belongings. I once found a multi pack of chcolate bars on the ground at a bus stop... I had no way of re-uniting them with there rightful owner and so I took them home and enjoed them. I once lost a packet of tea from underneath my buggie in a park, and I hope that whoever stumbled across them enjoyed them.

But saying all that, some of the things being picked up are completely useless commercially now, soggy nike trainers etc. They should hand out a number to contact where the rightfull owners can say "yes you can keep it as its worthless to us now anyway" or "no , it is a personal belonging and must be re-united with its rightful owner"

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Post: #46954 Millymollymandy
Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:54 pm

Interesting. I always assumed it was OK to take what was washed ashore because that's what people did in the olden days when ships were reguarly shipwrecked!

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Post: #46955 Andy Hamilton
Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:59 pm

Opened up a bit of a debate with this one.

It is a kind of same scenario as the 'if you found a wallet on the floor' really, inside the wallet is often the means to contact whoever if belongs to, but would you take the cash first. I can't say no as I understand that if the wallet was full of gold cards and I was stranded in a foreign contry and needed some cash to eat and get back home and this was the only way then indeed I would take it as a matter of survival. In 99% of circumstances I would contact the owner. - just being a bit of pedant with that one though.

The difference is with this ship is that no one really needs the cargo, it is pure greed. I understand people taking the stuff though, indeed probally the same people who would take the wallet.
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Post: #46962 Stonehead
Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:41 pm

Annpan wrote:They should hand out a number to contact where the rightfull owners can say "yes you can keep it as its worthless to us now anyway" or "no , it is a personal belonging and must be re-united with its rightful owner"


Actually, "they" do. There's a Report of Wreck and Salvage form, that you can get from the Coastguard, the police, harbour masters etc and you fill it in with your contact details and what you've salvaged.

You hand it in and will usually be contacted in due course by the Receiver of Wrecks who will try to track down the owner with a view to reuniting them with their property. A reward can be made dependent on the condition of the salvaged items, their value and the amount of effort involved in the salvage.
Last edited by Stonehead on Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post: #46964 Stonehead
Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:42 pm

Millymollymandy wrote:Interesting. I always assumed it was OK to take what was washed ashore because that's what people did in the olden days when ships were reguarly shipwrecked!


Even then it was illegal to steal from shipwrecks.
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Post: #46965 Martin
Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:46 pm

it is a complex legal minefield - I seem to remember from my boating days that if you got into trouble at sea, if you accept another vessel's towrope, they can claim salvage on your vessel, if they accept yours, it doesn't apply! :?
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Post: #46966 Stonehead
Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:52 pm

Martin wrote:it is a complex legal minefield - I seem to remember from my boating days that if you got into trouble at sea, if you accept another vessel's towrope, they can claim salvage on your vessel, if they accept yours, it doesn't apply! :?


It's not as complex as it was.

Have a look Salvage, Wreck Law, and The Reporting Process, all on the Coastguard website.

I used to sail a lot, too, and did a bit of time in the naval reserves.
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Post: #46976 Paddy's mum
Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:46 pm

Surely the whole point of this theft or salvage debate is being overlooked. The people on the beach know, without ANY doubt, where that washed ashore property came from as well as who it belongs to. They are not gathering it together in order to give it back to whomever ... shipping company, insurers makes no difference to my mind.

This is theft - I make no bones about my opinion, and personally, I'd like to see the Police make some arrests and detentions.

I would have a great deal more respect for these people if they went along to the beach originally to gawp (after all, it's not every day you see this kind of thing happening on your doorstep) but then spent their energies in helping to prevent a major coastal disaster/catastrophe for local wildlife/helped with a beach clear up.

As it is, in my opinion, they have shown themselves to be greedy, heartless, grasping scum - when this is all over, I hope they are proud of themselves. I'd be sickened and ashamed to tell my mother where her little tub of perfume came from!!!!!!

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Post: #46979 manxminx
Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:56 pm

when i was at my lowest point phone cut off lost my job CCJ's and living on my child benefit for about 3 months not able to even pay my rent and with 2 kids and £37 a week to live on i found a wage packet that someone had dropped and i handed it into the police it didn't even cross my mind to keep it so you never really know untill your in that situation what you would do

As for salvaging items then asking for a reward isn't a good deed ment to be its own reward

and i am very surprised to hear ppl on this site that care so much and do so much for the planet not showing the same respect to the ppl that live on it :cry:
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Post: #46980 Andy Hamilton
Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:02 pm

manxminx wrote:when i was at my lowest point phone cut off lost my job CCJ's and living on my child benefit for about 3 months not able to even pay my rent and with 2 kids and £37 a week to live on i found a wage packet that someone had dropped and i handed it into the police it didn't even cross my mind to keep it so you never really know untill your in that situation what you would do



Good point, I hope I never find out. Saying that when I worked in a cafe and was working just to pay off an overdraft (no cash at all coming in) I was handed two £20 notes and the person thought she had handed me one. I handed it straight back without thinking.
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