Is it thieving or salvage

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red
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Post: #46982 red
Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:04 pm

Andy Hamilton wrote: but would you take the cash first. I can't say no as I understand that if the wallet was full of gold cards and I was stranded in a foreign contry and needed some cash to eat and get back home and this was the only way then indeed I would take it as a matter of survival. In 99% of circumstances I would contact the owner. - just being a bit of pedant with that one though.


I think when it comes down to survival, then it would be understandable.. even logical, but it would still be theft

Andy Hamilton wrote:The difference is with this ship is that no one really needs the cargo, it is pure greed.

nope - there is no justification at all.
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Post: #46983 red
Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:06 pm

Millymollymandy wrote:Interesting. I always assumed it was OK to take what was washed ashore because that's what people did in the olden days when ships were reguarly shipwrecked!

what people did in the olden days was actually cause the wreck in the first place! Wreckers would give false lighthouse signals etc etc and the ship would be guided towards the rocks.. and most of the people drown. and even if the wreck as 'an act of god' often the survivors would be killed for their valuables..so.. ah.. it was illegal then too!
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Post: #46984 Martin
Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:12 pm

if it was as clear cut as that I'd agree with you! :wink:
Say you and I wander down to the beach to see what's going on - a container has landed on the beach, has burst open, and we see that there are motorbikes aboard - they will be ruined in a few minutes by the sea, so we unload as many as we can to save them being totally lost! - so far we've done nothing wrong or illegal!
We then notice that our efforts have been caught on camera, and find to our horror that we are being branded as thieves on TV whilst we are busy sitting down filling out the relevant forms to make a pukka salvage claim! :geek:
It is reasonable to assume that people may have been there with altruistic or downright dodgy motives - to try to distinguish between the two would be difficult!
To be frank, despite the fact that I loathe the surveillance society, anyone who WAS caught by the news cameras would be a galloping plonker NOT to register any major finds! :cooldude:
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Post: #46986 red
Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:26 pm

well the people who took the bike did fill out a form yes - after the police gave it to them.

the people breaking open containers with their crow-bars? seriously, are you still thinking they might have been doing that to be kind?

in this news story the police have said the worst of the looting was done by organised gangs. what organised gangs of nice people out to do some good?
the acting receiver of the wreck says
Personal belongings, not goods for sale, were being rifled through and strewn on the beach.

and
From what I witnessed it was clear that there was no intent to store safely or record goods with the appropriate authorities, as such we will be utilising legislation available to prevent people removing more goods and if necessary using the law to prosecute people through the courts


and goods have already appeared on ebay. don't think that was part of the right procedure either....
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Post: #46989 Stonehead
Tue Jan 23, 2007 5:10 pm

manxminx wrote:As for salvaging items then asking for a reward isn't a good deed ment to be its own reward


Salvaging at sea can be extremely hazardous and extremely expensive. By permitting salvage for pecuniary reward, seafarers (and shoredwellers too) are encouraged to take the risk and go to the expense of recovering ships and cargoes that would otherwise be lost.

Saving life at sea, on the other hand, is generally expected to go unrewarded as that is indeed a good deed and the situation could well be reversed.

That's why I emphasised that in salvaging something with the expectation of reward you have to show that you went to some effort to salvage the ship or its cargo. Just picking stuff off the beach and carrying it back to your car is not evidence of real effort.
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Post: #46990 Stonehead
Tue Jan 23, 2007 5:20 pm

red wrote:the people breaking open containers with their crow-bars? seriously, are you still thinking they might have been doing that to be kind?


I'm with you on this, so don't take this the wrong way! :lol:

If the tide is coming in, there's no heavy equipment to hand and the only way to save the cargo is to break open the containers, then using crowbars or boltcutters may well be appropriate.

If the tide is going out and heavy equipment is on the way (and this has been stated several times), then breaking into the containers is not on and the police should have intervened.

As it is, the police are standing by and wringing their hands, saying there's nothing they can do. If they feel they can't get these people under salvage laws, how about causing criminal damage?

Or how about stopping people at their cars and saying fill in the salvage forms with your name, contact details (which we will check now) and details of what you're salvaging. If you do that, you can leave with the salvage. If not, you will be treated as a potential thief and the salvage will be impounded until a court can decide the matter.

That's probably too simple, though.
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Post: #46991 Martin
Tue Jan 23, 2007 5:24 pm

I've just heard the latest radio reports from the site - plod is admitting they've been slow in reacting, and the vultures appear to have arrived from all over the country....... :?
They interviewed someone who'd driven all the way from Nottingham - his attitude was "well, it's insured innit? - we're just clearing up!" :cooldude:
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Post: #46995 Muddypause
Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:27 pm

I was in a plumber's merchant earlier today (the one with the spelling mistake in its name, Martin - though I didn't draw this to their attention on this occasion).

This news item came on the radio, and the chap behind the counter remarked about the woman who had lost her personal possessions to looters. This, he considered to be jolly bad form. But it was odd that the people carting away motorbikes and the like, seemed quite happy to be interviewed on TV about it, quite unabashed, and readily identifiable. Apparently a BMW steeringwheel (which were included in the haul) costs £1,500 new. Go figure! I bet there are several of them on eBay all of a sudden. Unfortunately, the chap I was talking to then went on to mutter unpleasant things about what would have happened if the containers had been filled with asylum seekers. I left, banging my socialist head against the wall.

A couple of years ago there was a cargo of timber washed ashore somewhere (Cornwall?), and despite repeated warnings that people should not try to retrieve any of it (it's dangerous - tides; cliffs!) there was, apparently, a high incidence of new sheds appearing in local people's gardens.
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Post: #47000 red
Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:20 pm

Stonehead wrote:[
Or how about stopping people at their cars and saying fill in the salvage forms with your name, contact details (which we will check now) and details of what you're salvaging. If you do that, you can leave with the salvage. If not, you will be treated as a potential thief and the salvage will be impounded until a court can decide the matter.

That's probably too simple, though.

I think this is essentially what the police did - which is why the guy taking the motorbike did everythng correctly - as removing a motorbike by tractor was a bit obvious. But they could only tackle so many people

yes you are right - the policing was inadequate - there are only about 2 of them there at first - they did not expect people from all over the country to rush down. ( I wonder how much it cost in petrol to get that water damaged pair of trainers that almost fit.....) and they just couldn't stop everyone.
Today they closed the roads and all access to the beach. yet people still were prepared to walk in some distance.

It has been suggested it will take a year to remove all the containers from the ship, and we are all here waiting to hear if the 3500 tons of oil will be successfully removed - which will take a week they say.

don't mind me - I'm just a bit touchy cos I know that coastline and hate to see it so messed up.
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Post: #47005 Wombat
Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:56 pm

Andy Hamilton wrote:Good point, I hope I never find out. Saying that when I worked in a cafe and was working just to pay off an overdraft (no cash at all coming in) I was handed two £20 notes and the person thought she had handed me one. I handed it straight back without thinking.


Good one Andy! I think that is the attitude we need to cultivate, honesty without thinking. I have always believed that there are some things you should do for no other reason than they are the right thing to do.

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Post: #47019 red
Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:50 am

I'll second that
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Post: #47167 Annpan
Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:04 pm

This was just on the JV radio 2 show. On the whole most people agreed that it was very wrong and a lot of similar examples were given as were discused here...

They spoke to the Swedish lady who had her personal possetions "looted" she said
Anyone but people in England wouldn't do this


Interesting that she thinks that (being a Scot I couldn't possibly comment :wink: )

I just thought that was interesting

Ann

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Post: #47177 red
Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:46 pm

this is the same woman that I mentioned in an earlier posting.

I think her comments are racist, because, sadly greed is a world-wide problem. (Of course I understand she is distressed about her possessions.)

for example - after the terrible disaster of the tsumani many Swedish people were killed or missing - and their homes were targeted by looters -
here is an article in the Scotsman

Sweden is the hardest hit country outside the devastated region, with more than 2,500 missing and 52 confirmed dead. It withheld some names after homes were targeted by thieves.

"It is unfortunately a reality that people who are known to be missing have had their homes gone through and partly emptied," Lars Danielsson, the state secretary, told local radio.

Swedish police could not give details of such break-ins, but said similar incidents of looting had occurred after the sinking of the Estonia, which killed 551 Swedes in 1994.


the good news is this in a local article:

Anita and Jan Bokdal's possessions - including family photos, furniture and carpets - were being transported from Sweden to their winery in South Africa on board the MSC Napoli.

But after her story was reported by the media, one beachcomber had alerted authorities.

"The person that recovered them has delivered them so we can reunite her with her things," said a spokesman for Britain's Maritime and Coastguard Agency.

Red

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