Angry mobs...

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snapdragon
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Re: Angry mobs...

Post: # 132363Post snapdragon »

Such an emotive subject
I was brought up by a single Mum, four of us after my stepfather died and my Mum on a benefit and a small job that paid her the two pounds a week she was allowed to earn, my sister and I had been latchkey kids while our parents worked, by the time my brothers were born sis and I (11 and 13) both had jobs delivering newspapers, babysitting, saturday shop work, mother's help (thats a low paid skivvy doing housework at the wealthy end of town) Lucky our wages weren't added to the equation I guess, as that was often needed to buy a bit of grocery.
I shan't rattle on with the full history - but as you see an 11 year old was considered capable of work and not a child that required watching - it seems the world has changed into a bad scary place in my lifetime :(
I know of people who 'work' the system to gain benefits so they can sit and watch their flat screen telly all day, and I know people who should be getting benefits that don't /can't claim - I know what it's like to survive on benefits - I have been the child that hid behind the sofa when the rent man came round, and the child who did not have the posh new school uniform, but I was not the child who was unloved or underfed
I pay my taxes NI etc etc and I truly believe that the benefit system needs looking at - but by folks who know what they are looking for - not a cross-the-board sweep of everybody, and certainly Not 'forcing' people into work who can't for reasons of health or childcare. I happily pay my taxes for the good of all
(but I do get a bit cross when they don't mend the potholes in the road :cussing: )
BTW The minister concerned, in a radio interview this week, stated that no-one would be 'forced' into work, but encouraged to work if their circumstances permitted it.
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Re: Angry mobs...

Post: # 132366Post JulieSherris »

Graye, I think that all too often, people turn a blind eye perhaps because it seems quite innocuous.... you know, a window cleaner maybe, or the guy who does sunday boot fairs.... but once you start adding them all up - costs the uk government a fortune!!

Here in Ireland, the benefit system is a LOT fairer... and the money is more than enough for people to live on - a typical single mother gets the equivalent of £150 a week - plus childcare supplements, money for school clothing, books etc.
They also get the chance to earn up to 140 euros a week before any benefits are stopped - it means that folks are 'less likely' to cheat the system. They can afford to feed quality food to their kids & the stigma just isnt there.

I haven't got any answers, but it'll take a brave person to find them & then implement them!!
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Re: Angry mobs...

Post: # 132374Post StripyPixieSocks »

I think I'm just irate at the moment as the way the Government are implementing this is for those who are sick on on Income Support:

You go for your medical at which the Dr assigned asks two questions and makes up the rest of the answers (which is fraud and is being looking into by our citizens advice lady and a formal complaint has been lodged)

Then instead of telling you anything a letter turns up from your housing association or whatever asking you how you are going to pay your rent now your benefits have been stopped.

We call the benefits agency who more or less shrug their shoulders when we ask what is going on and are told in no uncertain terms... "if you want money sign the job seekers allowance forms we've sent you or appeal but it might be 6 months before you get any money"

At which point we both break down and don't know what to do as this has come the day before we pay our gas and electric bill and need food.

We call our friend who works for CAB and she tells us this is their back handed way of getting people off of benefits by just stopping them with no warning and forcing people to sign the job seekers allowance forms to get money.

When you appeal you get your benefits reinstated at 80% but it took them two full months to even bother getting around to do that at which point it was stressed it could be 6 months before my appeal is looked at and I should just make it easier all around and sign the jobseekers allowance forms which states I am fit and able for work... if you sign this you can not appeal!

So two months down the line we are now two months in debt with water, gas, electric and are no closer to getting our appeal heard.

Now... this has done both myself and my OH's health no end of damage, I have cried more times in the last two months than I can remember, my OH's Psoriasis has gone mental and his mental health is more than a little shaky at the moment (and I am really worried about him) and he is in constant pain anyway with his back which is badly damaged after a work related accident.

Now, (me) having had a break down two days into the worry our friend has been great and helped us out ALOT but can you imagine if the person is alone, has no help and is maybe slightly mentally infirm?

Needless to say we are not the only ones who have been treated in this way and CAB are being flooded with people treated in the same manner!

It doesn't sound much when I write it down but can you imagine not knowing where you are going to get money from or infact if you are going to get any money and the benefits agency being less than helpful in outlining your options? I can tell you there have been times I have really honestly thought I could not go on...

Luckily we managed to borrow some money for OH's mom who is a pensioner but we have to somehow find that money to pay her back on top of catching up with all of the bills we are now getting threatening letters from.

I really have no idea how people enjoy living life on benefits or even how they afford to do the things they do while on them because I can't make ends meet and have spent the last two months running around trying to sort everything out while feeling at rock bottom and suicidal...

I know that's a bit of a rant but this is the heavy handed tactics that are being used on the vulnerable of late... and it's enough to make you want to lock yourself away and cry until it all goes away!

I am just thankful I do not have children because I have no idea how I would have coped with having to look after them too...

Who wants to bet they just hope alot of people just can't deal with it and don't appeal or sign for JSA and thus the magic numbers go down?

... and btw... my GP laughed when I asked her if I was medically fit for work... :?

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Re: Angry mobs...

Post: # 132406Post evelyn »

StripyPixieSocks wrote:
... and btw... my GP laughed when I asked her if I was medically fit for work... :?
My GP said " what!? are you nut's? dont be silly!"

Not exactly words of comfort but i got the mesage, very hard to take though as up untill 1996 i had always held down phisicly demamding jobs and done all jobs around the home big and small by myself and now it takes me all day to hoover the house and 3-4 days to cut the 20ft x 4ft lenth of hedge at the front of the house.

I would love to go back to work i really would but same as for you it is not an option.

I would be interested in what jobs they think are available any way, as people are getting layed off left right and centre.

Eve

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Re: Angry mobs...

Post: # 132501Post Masco&Bongo »

I have a benefit scrounging branch of the family. My SIL is 19 with 2 children under 2 (both "accidents") and a partner that "can't find a job".

SIL has always said she has no intention of getting a job, because she "doesn't want to work, it's boring". Her partner gave up (!) a young apprenticeship type job at a garage about 2 years ago because it was "boring". He has had a number of jobs, but always ends up in dispute with his boss (which is never his fault). He has apparantly been unable to find any work for the last 18 months, despite my OH finding him interviews in his 'trade', he even failed to get a job stacking shelves for Xmas in a supermarket...

Both are happy taking benefits, they seem to have no inclination to get off their backsides and sort themselves out. I wouldn't mind if they were fantastic parents because they are home all the time, but they are not. We have had our nephew for the weekend and dreaded taking him back because of what he would go back to (sat on the sofa watching DVD's all day, with a dummy stuffed in his mouth).

On the other hand, when my sister had cancer a few years ago, it took over a year to get any benefits (DLA etc) for her, as the people assessing her couldn't see what the problem was with asking a person with a tumour the size of a dinner plate on her (collapsed) lung, who was having massive amounts of chemo- and radio- therapy, to go to work.

She didn't want benefits for life, she just wanted some help and a little financial security whilst she was trying to get well.

The system is all swings and roundabouts.

If people are not actively seeking a job, they shouldn't get JSA. The government/job centres etc should work at putting people into work if that is the case, not pussyfooting around the issue.

We haven't got children, mainly because I can't afford to stop work to have them. Maternity pay etc isn't enough to pay our mortgage if I stop work even for 6 months. It annoys me that my SIL (and other young women) can leave school with no qualifications, never have a job, pop out 2 kids, not look after them properly (in my eyes) and get handouts from the government, including a house.
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Re: Angry mobs...

Post: # 132517Post DominicJ »

No doubt I'll be in the minority here, but here we go.

Me and my Girlfriend are planning on having the mortgage paid off before we have kids, rather than having kids, then complaining we cant work and that others have to pay us to stay home and raise them.
It'll mean having kids later than we'd like, and living a bit of a quieter life, no winter cruises and summer ski trips

I really dont care what being forced into a minimum wage job will do for someones depression, I was at work at 7am this morning, I'll be leaving at 7pm if I'm lucky, if I'm really lucky, I'll still have a job in December, what do you think that does for mine? (Considering the hours I work, minimum wage would be a pay rise too.)

The angry mob is likely made up of people like me, paid up members of society who are careful, live within our means and made fools of by the tax and welfare system.
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Re: Angry mobs...

Post: # 132521Post DominicJ »

"But you've just proved one of the points I was trying to make, check your language..... there are WHOLE estates of single mums are there? where every single house is occupied by some kind of vicky pollard caricature? I doubt that, I understand what you are trying to convey, but this kind of inaccurate and inflammatory language doesn't help get to the bottom of anything. And presuming to know the future life of all of these women too, have you ever heard of self-fulfilling prophecies?"

If anyone doubts that there are areas where virtualy everyone is a vicky pollard in waiting, a vickey pollard or a vickey pollard who's now a grandmother, I could give you a few areas to drive round in Manchester, I'd advise against stopping though.
If half of the girls in a secondary school finish before getting pregnant its a success round here, and why not? Your better off getting pregnant a few times than getting a job, free flat and beer money, far more than you could afford on minimum, especialy when income support doesnt kick in till 24, but you can get baby money whenever you have a kid.


But of course, the 15 year old tart has a kid, so she needs the (my) money more than me
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Re: Angry mobs...

Post: # 132525Post Annpan »

While I agree with much of what you say, and a lot of it is your choice and I respect you for it...
DominicJ wrote:
I really dont care what being forced into a minimum wage job will do for someones depression,
You obviously don't know what it is like to be clinically depressed - Luckily neither do I, but I know many, many people who do.

I think work is a real benefit to people who have depression, I have seen it work... it can give people a reason to get up in the morning, a team to belong to, and a social outlet for people who can feel trapped in their homes. But I also have to admit that there are people who have bigger problems that need solved first.

I don't think it helps for us to talk of minimum wage - my first job (11 years ago) I got paid 2.40 an hour and I could only get 20 hours a week, I still went to work and had to pay rent (£20 a week) and bus fares, though I was young and wasn't paying bills or food costs. But I did support my OH for 9 months AND pay mortgage and bills on a minimum wage job just 5 years ago - I remember when my salary went above £10,000 We are lucky that we are better off now but I think minimum wage is a reasonable pay for the job it entails.


Do they even have minimum wage in USA?
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Re: Angry mobs...

Post: # 132527Post Masco&Bongo »

DominicJ wrote:If anyone doubts that there are areas where virtualy everyone is a vicky pollard in waiting, a vickey pollard or a vickey pollard who's now a grandmother, I could give you a few areas to drive round in Manchester, I'd advise against stopping though.
If half of the girls in a secondary school finish before getting pregnant its a success round here, and why not? Your better off getting pregnant a few times than getting a job, free flat and beer money, far more than you could afford on minimum, especialy when income support doesnt kick in till 24, but you can get baby money whenever you have a kid.
Agreed - at least half the girls who were in my SIL's class at school (she left 3 years ago) are pregnant with their 2nd or 3rd child (at 19!!!). None of them have jobs, a lot of them have 2 or 3 children with different fathers and they all have 2 or 3 bedroom HA houses. (Coincidentally, we're in the NW, but not Manchester). All the girls meet up at the SureStart place a few times a week, or are round at each others houses a lot (with all the kids watching TV whilst they have a fag outside the back door)

Yes, it sounds horribly stereotypical, but unfortunately it's true... :?

I'm glad we moved out of the area several years ago, it's not very nice.
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Re: Angry mobs...

Post: # 132531Post Graye »

Not to get too deeply back into this discussion can I just say the US had minimum wage laws way before they came into force in the EU. I seem to remember it is specified on a state by state basis rather than nationwide but could stand corrected on that one.
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Re: Angry mobs...

Post: # 132532Post DominicJ »

"Do they even have minimum wage in USA?"

Yep, a federal one and some states have a higher one.

I dont know what its like to be clinicaly depressed, but I've been sat in the doctors for 6 hours before with IBS as the unemployed people with "depression" come in for their cocodamol or methadone, no, seriously, methadone is handed out and were all put in front of me, 10 oclock appointment, yeah right.



I'm about as far east as Manchester gets now, right in the foothills of the Penines, but grew up on the M60
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Re: Angry mobs...

Post: # 132536Post StripyPixieSocks »

DominicJ wrote:"Do they even have minimum wage in USA?"

Yep, a federal one and some states have a higher one.

I dont know what its like to be clinicaly depressed, but I've been sat in the doctors for 6 hours before with IBS as the unemployed people with "depression" come in for their cocodamol or methadone, no, seriously, methadone is handed out and were all put in front of me, 10 oclock appointment, yeah right.



I'm about as far east as Manchester gets now, right in the foothills of the Penines, but grew up on the M60
I think you might find Co-Codamol is for painkilling and Methadone for Drug addicts neither of which have ever been or can be prescribed for depression.

I agree there are alot of people claiming depression when they haven't got it and it makes it all the more harder for the people with REAL depression and mental health problems to get diagnosed or treated.

You cannot describe the symptoms of depression to people who are either closed minded or have not suffered from it nor seen anyone close suffer from it but having woken up on occasion believing the best thing for myself and those around me is for me to 'not be here' and having been forcibly prescribed medication to get me into some semblance of normal mindedness I can tell you it's not nice and it doesn't help when we get lumped into the same category as drug addicts or career benefits claimants.

As I say, I am disabled and I have real, clinical depression and have never EVER been a drug addict or been given / prescribed Methadone but I do take CoCodamol for the pain of my nerves being crushed in my back though...

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Re: Angry mobs...

Post: # 132545Post Graye »

I agree, depression is a word bandied about quite a bit to describe people having a hard time over something. At the moment my OH reckons he's "depressed" because the idiots at the end of our drive (probably 100 yards from the actual house) have flashing Xmas lights all over their house. Bearing in mind we live in the depths of the countryside and no one but us can see them it does seem a bit daft, I must admit. It doesn't bother me in the least though - I only see them when I'm in the kitchen in the evening and it's hardly as if they have imported a full scale circus complete with generators, hooters and sirens for the duration. What he really means is that he's "fed up" about it; but then he gets seriously "fed up" about all sorts of things and has never, to my knowledge, actually suffered with depression. No doubt he will be fine about it tomorrow, a couple of glasses of Beajolais Nouveau, a decent dinner and a cigar will work wonders on him!

On the other hand I once DID have a bout of post-natal depression after my son was born and I do worry about ever having anything similar again as it was a very miserable experience. That and bronchitis are two wretched illnesses which I have had and I fear either of them re-occuring.

Unfortunately, the "bad back" arena is another one where people with genuine problems have now been lumped in with the "jumping on the bandwagon" back problems. I suspect that doctors COULD quite easily distinguish between people with degenerative spine problems and the lead-swingers but they don't have the time or facilities. They hand out prescriptions and write sick notes as it is easier. I suspect they also worry about litigation sometimes too; we are getting more like the USA for this every day. Co-codamol I take by the handful if my osteoarthrosis is giving me serious grief, along with any other heavy duty painkillers and/or anti-inflammatories I can come by. I very often manage without them but can't always. I do know that my specialist and I jokingly discussed what sort of job I might be able to do at the point I finished full time work. He suggested being a postman with a trolley as I can walk quite happily. But then I couldn't bend to low-level letter boxes or climb stairs with the trolley. The only one we could come up with eventually was standing upright at a pulpit-type desk whilst walking on a treadmill!

I do wonder whether there is a bit od scaremongering going on and the proposed new regualtions, once they come into being, will not be quite as draconian as imagined. I really can't see a time when people will be literally forced into inappropriate jobs against medical advice. I'm still trying to find actual details of the proposals. Does anyone have an official link rather than a link to articles in the more histrionic tabloids please?
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Re: Angry mobs...

Post: # 132574Post Big Al »

StripyPixieSocks wrote: >>snip
Also, if you are not terminally ill and you are claiming benefits you will also be forced into work.

Now can you tell me how effective being shoved into a minimum wage job is going to benefit the health of say someone with mobility issues and severe depression?

I am already feeling more and more anxiety about my future and how we are going to make ends meet and to be quite frank I've had enough of being the Governments kicking post and actually feel quite angry!

What does everyone else think about children as young as 12 being left to fend for themselves and disabled people being forced back to work?

......the simple answer is get on your bike and look for a job.................

so sayeth that tory bloke in the 80's.....

If like me, people have mobillity and mental health issues that are documented then we really have no worries.

Over the years this government plans a policy change and then it somehow miraculously gets "leaked" and the government then guages the outcries of angst from society. If there is not much the proposal goes through if it's widespread dismay it somehow gets left out of the queens speech as "there will be no parliamentary time" to get the bill through parliament.

Divvin worry SPS... the end of the world as we know it hasn't happened yet.

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Re: Angry mobs...

Post: # 132588Post mrsflibble »

child benefit is oing up by £1.20 per week for the first child. piffle. yeah, ok, nice to get a rise and all that but WTF? that's 2 pints of milk. one 2 mile bus ride. a loaf. 1/8 of a preschool session, not all four.
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