"Can we talk" about

[demi]

it was really hard for me to bite my tounge on that one Dunc, and by the time i got round to posting my responce i had a wee check and noticed youd posted almost the exact same thing!
so i retract my origonal post, probably just as well as i am getting into trouble from admin .

[JuzaMum]

Some science is just theoretical - anyone checked how far away the stars are?

Actually, yes - you use parallax (which is just geometry) to establish your first baseline, and then you use Cephid variables (which have a well-established relationship between their luminosity and their period, discovered via parallax measurements) and Type 1a supernovae (which have a known luminosity set by the laws of nuclear physics) based on that to calibrate out far enough for the Hubble constant to become useful, and then it's red-shifts (general relativity, proven in hundreds of ways) all the way out to the edge of the observable universe. It's all solid stuff - every bit as solid as the science which makes the computer you're using to post on this forum work.

"Theoretical" doesn't mean "we're just making it up". Technically, it's only "theoretical" that the Sun will rise in the East tomorrow.

I know homeopathic teething powders soothe my fretful baby and she is far too young for the placebo effect to work. I don't know how they work but my experience tells my they do. (She is my fourth child I have used them on)

The placebo effect works on you - you're the person assessing its effectiveness, and your baby responds to your emotional state, so there at least two mechanisms there whereby the placebo effect can appear to have an effect on babies. (Or animals.)

That's me told then

I know there is good evidence regarding the stars but there may be unknown factors unaccounted for. I imagine (and even believe) the sums are right but I cant 'know'.

I don't for one minute think the teething powders work because baby thinks I am happier when she has them - they do stop her grizzling and unsettled mood when teething even when someone else gives them to her.

JuzaMum

[demi]

sorry but i cant help it,


in relation to measuring stars, here is a detailed explination with diagrams and everything :
http://star-www.st-and.ac.uk/~fv/webnotes/chapt14.htm

im not going to get started on homeopathy. other than seconding what dunc said.
here is somthing about the placebo effect by Dr Ben Goldacre: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1Q3jZw4FGs

[sleepyowl]

Excuse me. pardon me, Pagan chaplain coming through, I would hope that religion & science will not bicker about the fundamental meaning of life as neither side has the answer just as much as we don't know why we are here, we how are here & that's not the same thing. That we can live our lives in harmony & not go to war or prostletise to others, or berate others just because our belief structure is different to another persons. There is only one belief system that is right that is the one that is right for the individual.

[demi]

Excuse me. pardon me, Pagan chaplain coming through, I would hope that religion & science will not bicker about the fundamental meaning of life as neither side has the answer just as much as we don't know why we are here, we how are here & that's not the same thing. That we can live our lives in harmony & not go to war or prostletise to others, or berate others just because our belief structure is different to another persons. There is only one belief system that is right that is the one that is right for the individual.

there is no 'meaning' of life, life just is. its what happens when the exact conditioins are right to support it. just like any chemical reaction.

[MKG]

I'm a sceptic.

One of the first rules of scepticism (yes, there are rules) is that a decision can be made only on a falsifiable proposition. It is impossible to prove the existence of any god, but it is equally impossible to disprove that existence. The sceptic line is, therefore, that I must hold that any god - all gods - may exist.

I can't bring myself to believe it, but that's certainly where logic leads.

Mike

PS ... "Scientific" evidence can only be so termed if the work has been peer-reviewed. If it hasn't, it ain't scientific. There's not much bias possible which the peer-review system wouldn't spot and expose in two seconds flat. The bias appears when someone with a vested interest re-interprets the results for general consumption. Don't blame the scientists - it's the marketing which is at fault.

[indy]

Excuse me. pardon me, Pagan chaplain coming through, I would hope that religion & science will not bicker about the fundamental meaning of life as neither side has the answer just as much as we don't know why we are here, we how are here & that's not the same thing. That we can live our lives in harmony & not go to war or prostletise to others, or berate others just because our belief structure is different to another persons. There is only one belief system that is right that is the one that is right for the individual.

I wish I had said it that well!!!

[sleepyowl]

there is no 'meaning' of life, life just is. its what happens when the exact conditioins are right to support it. just like any chemical reaction.

Yes but why does it happen, science is yet to determine this, if it did the religion wouldn't exist, science can only go so far until it hits a wall, but it also one that religion can't answer either, if either could the other wouldn't exist. What you have is a belief system, it is one where your faith is purely based on science & it is right for you. I'm also a sceptic & tend to see gods as archetypes & the tales as lessons on humanity, but I also feel that athere is an overriding of place within the universe that we can tap into, whatever you want to call it. I will not berate you for what you believe but it still doesn't fit me too well. after all my partner is also an Athiest.

[sleepyowl]

I wish I had said it that well!!!

I'm a public speaker so have to come across as eloquent, plus having to read slowly due to dyslexia has ts advantages as well as as having a spell checker

[gregorach]

I know there is good evidence regarding the stars but there may be unknown factors unaccounted for. I imagine (and even believe) the sums are right but I cant 'know'.

Until someone solves the Problem of Induction (and I doubt they ever will), you could say that about anything... And yet people don't suddenly decide that gravity is optional, or that they're going to plant their squashes in November.

[prison break fan]

Really enjoying reading all the posts, although I don't feel able to express my views. I'm not sure about anything!! pbf.

[sleepyowl]

And yet people don't suddenly decide that gravity is optional

I dunno I have seen people try when hanging clothes on rails without taking it into account along with point of balance & then wonder why things have all of a sudden ended up on the floor.

[gregorach]

there is no 'meaning' of life, life just is. its what happens when the exact conditioins are right to support it. just like any chemical reaction.

Yes but why does it happen, science is yet to determine this, if it did the religion wouldn't exist

Actually, the idea that religion is about answering the "big imponderables" is an entirely modern invention. It's only come about because science has done so well in dealing with the much more practical matters (predicting the weather and the movements of the stars, why do people get sick, why do disasters happen, etc) which were the original domain of religion.

[demi]

there is no 'meaning' of life, life just is. its what happens when the exact conditioins are right to support it. just like any chemical reaction.

Yes but why does it happen, science is yet to determine this, if it did the religion wouldn't exist, science can only go so far until it hits a wall, but it also one that religion can't answer either, if either could the other wouldn't exist. What you have is a belief system, it is one where your faith is purely based on science & it is right for you. I'm also a sceptic & tend to see gods as archetypes & the tales as lessons on humanity, but I also feel that athere is an overriding of place within the universe that we can tap into, whatever you want to call it. I will not berate you for what you believe but it still doesn't fit me too well. after all my partner is also an Athiest.

im starting to get a headache, although it may be because i havent eaten today

Right.

why does it happen? thats like saying why do chemical reactions happen. because thats all it is, a chemical reaction.
they have made amino acids in the laboritary you know.
true they dont know the exact origins of life, but they do know that bacteria survive in in a dormant state the cold vacum of space and they can be revived again just by warming them up. meaning that life has the ability to travel through space on metiors or commets, and its very possible that they could reach other plannets where the enviromental conditions are right for life to survive and begin the evolution prosses.

and there is the fundamental question, if god created us, who then created god?

science will allways exist even if religion doesnt.

[sleepyowl]

Just as science doesn't stay static neither does religion & you would be hard pushed to find a none fundamentalist Christian who takes the whole 'world was created in seven days' as literal