Organic?

[ina]

Now you have mentioned abattoirs I think you should know a few things about killing and transportation and there is nothing organic about any of it.

Transportation regulations in the UK are a sham

I know there's always "black sheep" amongst every business type - and the haulage industry has been struggling in recent years, so they are particularly likely to rather stretch their regulations. Have you got any proof that the animals so mis-treated where from an organic farm? In that case the certifying body (plus a lot of other people) would be very interested to hear about it. And I don't know why your friends haven't immediately notified the RSPCA or similar organisations - maybe they have.

Not all haulage of live animals works like that. We have livestock picked up here regularly - we would never allow anything like that to happen.

And of course, the killing even in a "certified organic" abattoir always ends with a dead animal. However, they need to show they have a foolproof system in place that non-organic and organic can't get mixed up (if they deal with both). Don't know, but they might have different standards for holding pens etc as well, the standards for animal welfare are rather higher in organic.

The problem with abattoirs in this country is the same as with supermarkets: Concentration, centralisation. Transport distances far too long - and again, that has nothing to do with organic.

Ina

[The Chili Monster]

Shirlz2005 - you can order by mail UK produced, organic pumpkin and sunflower seeds from www.mrseeds.co.uk

[ina]

The state has monopoly of the word 'organic'. This is possibly worse than the GM companies who analyze and patent DNA structures of rice and wheat in existence and grown by indigenous farmers for thousands of years and now they have to pay for the privilege of saving or exchanging seeds because GM companies now 'own' the knowledge of what is inside those seeds (eg http://www.i-sis.org.uk/LiberatingKnowledge.php)

For a 'flavour' of the 'organic' debate:

I've only just got round to reading all your links - interesting to see the American point of view; but these are all American. I've got the feeling they are at least 10 years behind the British debate, and Britain is at least 20 years behind several European countries...
I didn't know that in the States organic farms have to pay an "organic" tax according to the amount they produce. That's truly ridicilous. In Europe (including Britain), you do pay a fee for the certification, but you also receive from the State a payment per hectare for producing organically. That makes the cost of certification look a bit different, doesn't it? The payment is higher for the first few years during conversion, when most farmers can expect their profits (if any...) to drop drastically. Organic farming is not just stopping to use chemicals, it's an entire change to the system. Once fully certified, you can also often receive extra benefits when you join other environmental schemes (Rural Stewardship etc).

By the way - I-SIS had a workshop (in co-operation with others, for example Elm Farm Research Centre) at Sheepdrove Farm in January, on "Dream Farms" - basically a totally sustainable farm system. I would have loved to go, but lack of time and money stopped me from doing it. However, as soon as I find out what they came up with, I'll pass it on.

Oh, and in case anybody wonders why I'm so energetically joining in this discussion: It's not only my hobby-horse; I have a degree in agriculture from Witzenhausen, the first university in Germany (or even Europe? - can't remember) to have a Professor for Organic Farming; and an MSc in organic farming from the Scottish Agricultural College/Aberdeen University. I have worked on 7 farms, organic and conventional, in 3 European countries and Australia. I don't think I know everything (far from it - particularly where things move so fast as in organic farming), but I think I probably know more than the average population about this subject. And I'd seriously be interested in more information if anybody hears about things being not the way they should be - there's too much gossip about, and allegations; if something's wrong, we should do something about it.

Ina

[Tigerhair]

I think you've hit the nail on the head there Gunners!! Trendy means expensive.... I so want to start my own business doing what many people are doing already but NOT charging the earth for it... lack of funds means that I can't do it... but one day!!!!

Shirlz, I haven't been involved in this thread that I started, been poorly, but, glancing through, this point struck home. It is the ethos of the Daily Bread that I mentioned in another post. From their website: "How to pursue profit without being greedy".... really hit a nerve. I mean, how much money do we actually NEED!? If you ever need any help that I can give starting something like this up... let me know. Might carry on reading the rest - you lot don't half waffle sometimes!!!

[Shirley]

Shirlz, I haven't been involved in this thread that I started, been poorly, but, glancing through, this point struck home. It is the ethos of the Daily Bread that I mentioned in another post. From their website: "How to pursue profit without being greedy".... really hit a nerve. I mean, how much money do we actually NEED!? If you ever need any help that I can give starting something like this up... let me know. Might carry on reading the rest - you lot don't half waffle sometimes!!!

Waffle??? Me??? Quiet as a mouse

[Tigerhair]

Um.... yes, dear

[ina]

Actually, I think it's been me who wrote most of these long posts... Sorry. It's a subject on which you shouldn't get me started. You'll never shut me up now!

[Shirley]

Shirlz2005 - you can order by mail UK produced, organic pumpkin and sunflower seeds from www.mrseeds.co.uk

Thanks Chili!!

Have bookmarked that one.