Bio-Diesel

[PlayingWithFire]

Any experts on bio-diesel out there?

I am buying a diesel engine - and wish to use all sorts of vegetable all waste to minimise the mineral diesel used.

I have done a lot of internet research but would like to talk about this with real people, who are experimenting themselves.

I have read about the cars smelling like chip shops ... anyone actually doing stuff like this?

[Andy Hamilton]

Yeah I used to know someone who had a van that smelled like a chip shop. Lost conatact now, but he pretty much just started to pour vegetable oil into his tank.

There is some bit and bobs on here http://www.selfsufficientish.com/car.htm also it could be worth contacting my council in BAth as I think that most of their vechicles have converted to bio diesel. http://www.bathnes.gov.uk/bathnes

[Muddypause]

We need to be a little careful of terms, here. 'Biodiesel', the commercial product available at forecourt pumps, and used by fleet operators, is a mix of mineral diesel and organic diesel. The mix is, typically, 5% organic, 95% mineral. It is not vegetable diesel, and I wouldn't dream of commenting about whether using the name '<i>BIO</i>deisel' is just a cynical ploy to gain green credentials. For those with ethical concerns, it is also worth noting that the latest organic diesel production methods use animal fats as well as vegetable matter. I imagine this will give vegetarians, muslims, hindus and jews some cause for moral concern. This will again be mixed with mineral fuel, to be sold under the name Bio-plus.

Running an engine on pure vegetable oil (cooking oil) is a different proposition. I hear that it is perfectly possible, but know nothing more; I would be interested to hear some researched figures for emissions.

When low sulphur diesel was first introduced I heard several anecdotal stories of fuel system failure on some vehicles. I gather this may only affect older engines, but I don't know what the specifics are here. I imagine, however, that the same condition may apply when using pure vegetable oil.

Now for the politics: IMHO, all these alternative fuels (including LPG, which I run my car on), and including things like wind farms, simply legitimate our consumption of more and more energy, and our use of more and more cars. The real answer is to try and step off this spiralling trap of consumption, production, growth, consumption.

[Wombat]

Can't argue with your ethics, Stew, sustainability is why I do the "self sufficiency in the City" stuff that I do. The problem is that most people don't give a rats..... so anything that reduces the environmental impact of the silent majority, while we work for greater change, is worth doing I reckon.

That is not to say that you aren't right....we do need to break the cycle!

Nev

[Andy Hamilton]

The real answer is to try and step off this spiralling trap of consumption, production, growth, consumption.

Very good point, myself and Dave were talking about the impact that our site might have. The server we are on uses electricity and every visitor we have uses electricity to get there. Although we do try and promote ways of reducing consumption we are also acutely aware that we are creating some. We have decided that a some point we will gestimate a figure and donate money to tree aid so that we can ensure carbon nutrality. If you have any other idea on how to be carbon neutral than please pass them on. (soory playing with fire slightly off topic).

[PlayingWithFire]

I am in agreement with all 3 comments above - and quite happy for the discussion to migrate to other issues - after all, that is how I think!

I presently don't use a car because I want to minimise my environmental impact - and I am planting trees - and I am thinking long and hard about all issues - in effect doing a modest EIA for all my actions.

Now if that could be one result of this website it would be huge progress - and would justify the materials, energy and pollution from the internet ... I feel we have to be very pragmatic - and we all have our own perspective and degree of self sufficiency (and motives).

But I am buying a diesel car ... and I make no apologies for that ... I have had years of conflict ... and have made my decission ... but I definitely qualify for an "ish" badge - no holier than thou absolute environmentalism from me - my student days have gone (and I ended up just being depressed ... my vocation is to be happy and to inspire others!)

But, getting people to be aware of their environmental impact ... and to make a value judgement before they act - that would be real progress, me thinks.

OK - I am not here to get all political - I see this site as a chat down the allotment or pub ... exchanging ideas ... I hope I fit in.

All the best!

ps - I am planning to move towards 95% bio and 5% mineral. And yes, it is always walk first, then bike, bus or hitch, and progressing to car. And when I get really hedonistic, I jump on a plane and piss it all away :-)

Hell bound!

[Muddypause]

Since Malcolm raised the subject, I've been looking at bio-diesel links on the web, and have discovered some interesting stuff. Seems there are two ways of going down the 'chip shop oil' route - one requires you to modify the vegetable oil, but means that you can put it into an unmodified diesel car; the other requires modification to your car, but you can use cooking oil straight off the shelf. There are companies who produce 'biomass' or 'biodiesel' on a large scale, but for some reason that I haven't fathomed yet, they seem intent on using this to supplement mineral diesel in small quantities. It's also likely to include processed animal fat.

Engine damage doesn't seem to be a major issue.

Environmental damage seems low.

Major problem seems to be commercial supplies of any sort of biofuel - there are only 1 - 200 outlets throughout the country ATM. Garden shed technology rules.

How many acres of rapeseed will I need to grow to run my car on?

I've added a few links to my LPG page, if anyone is interested.

[Wombat]

Garden shed technology rules.

I love that phrase, taken out of context it could become a banner for the self sufficientish movement.....................what do you reckon?

Nev

[gug]

Hi,

There seems to be a lot of confusion on this subject, this is my understanding of it...

Biodiesel is standard vegetable oil thats been processed with a sodium hydroxide/methanol mixture (sodium methoxide) - although i believe potassium hydroxide/methanol is also do-able.
The process involves figuring out the right strenght of methoxide (tritation)
to use (basedon the ph value of the oil available) and then mixing with the vegetable oil to get a reaction where by the oil separates from the glycerin. The soaps sink and you skim off the oil from the top -et viola -you now have a road fuel thin enough so that your fuel injector can spray it into your engine (the whole reason for processing is to remove the soap - thus thin it out.

The environmental downside to biodiesel production is that it can take a fair bit of energy to get the reaction going and keep it going (basically heat and stirring ).

The commercial stuff at the pumps is basically a blend of Bio and mineral diesel (B20 is generally the stongest i've heard of commercially which is 20% bio 80% mineral).

The ideal is 100% biodiesel however its difficult to produce in the required amounts - thus you get blends mentioned above. (in France 5% of all diesel at the pumps is biodiesel so if you've motored abroad you've probably already used it)

The only dodgy thing about using biodiesel in an old (pre 1994) car is generally that any unreacted methanol will rot and rubber rings or gaskets - thats the theory although if you do the reaction correctly then there should be very little methanol left in the fuel (commercial processors usually try and recover as much as possible as its probably the most expensive item used in the reaction).


Also available is fuel such as Ebony solutions / E-diesel etc.
This is (i think) filtered waste vegetable oil cut with thinners (so its easy on the fuel injector) - i think they often use White Spirit but i'm not 100% sure. - Thus you have fuel , this time with the glycerin still present but because its been thinned out, your injector can still deal with it.

A better method is to modify your car and run it on straight veg oil (svo).
This involves heating the oil prior to injection (because when its hot, its thin enough ).
There are a few variations on this but mostly it involves twin tanks, 1 used to start and stop/flush the engine containing mineral (or 100% biodiesel) and the other tank containing your SVO. The svo is preheated either by a heated filter prior to injection or by using the engine's coolant and a heat exchanger - or both.


The easiest method (although regrettably not the greenest) is to create a blend of Mineral Diesel and Straight vegetable oil.
This is not very technical - I generally empty 5 or 6 litres into a 20l jerry can and then top it up with mineral diesel, give it a "bit of a shake" and then pour straight into the tank .

If you have a Bosch (inline) injector on your car then this is very do-able. I have been running my Small Ford on a mix of between 25 and 33 percent vegetable oil and 75-67 % mineral diesel for the last year and a half with no problems whatsoever (other than a slight smell).
Car runs great, get good mileage - cant really tell the difference.
(apparently other benefits include less engine wear due to vegetable oil having a higher lubricity than Low Sulphur Diesel)

The downside is that if you do this and not pay the excise duty, you're in breach of our dear leader and his mate Gordon.

I would recommend this to anyone but make sure that you have an inline (bosch fuel injector) - the rotary (Lucas CAV) type will tear themselves apart if you aproach anything like too thick a mixture.


I would recommend people visit the good folk at LiLi (http://www.lowimpact.org) and attend one of their excellent biodiesel courses. Other than that, next month i believe they are running a course on converting your car to run on SVO


regards

[Andy Hamilton]

Thanks for the comprehensive reply gug.

[Muddypause]

That's interesting to hear a first hand account, Gug. Where do you get your supplies from? I imagine if you do a reasonable mileage, then you are going to need to buy it in fairly large quantities.

With LPG, a lot of people ask about sneakily using bottled propane, or even tapping off stuff from their domestic storage tank. The advantage, in their eyes, is that they avoid paying road fuel duty. In reality, there are two or three problems - transferring the fuel into the car's fuel tank, the price of bottled gas is higher than at the pump anyway, and also, your supplier is going to be mighty suspicious of the amount of gas you buy. The supplier's own position relative to the taxman will be compromised if he sells fuel that he suspects is for road use, but does not charge road duty on.

(WARNING: more politics follows.) Personally, I think paying taxes is a Good Thing in a mature society, and that in particular we all pay far too little for our energy. If energy was five times what it is now, we might regard it as a precious commodity that needs to be used responsibly. ATM we get a bargain.

[Guest]

We have decided that a some point we will gestimate a figure and donate money to tree aid so that we can ensure carbon nutrality.

In the 60s, in The Ballad Of John & Yoko, John Lennon made reference to how they had sent bags of acorns to several world leaders. Plant A Tree For Peace. Apparently one or two actually did.

A few years ago, someone sent me a bag of acorns for my birthday. Lovely present. I went out into the countryside planting them. I also planted some in my garden. In reality I don't suppose many will germinate (especially the one I planted in the 18th green of a golf course). But one in my garden is doing well.

Some character in recent history (I can't remember who - a writer, possibly) used to keep a pocket full of acorns, and walk with a pointed walking stick, occasionally stopping to make a little hole in the ground and drop an acorn into it.

[Andy Hamilton]

In the 60s, in The Ballad Of John & Yoko, John Lennon made reference to how they had sent bags of acorns to several world leaders. Plant A Tree For Peace. Apparently one or two actually did.

A few years ago, someone sent me a bag of acorns for my birthday. Lovely present. I went out into the countryside planting them. I also planted some in my garden. In reality I don't suppose many will germinate (especially the one I planted in the 18th green of a golf course). But one in my garden is doing well.

Some character in recent history (I can't remember who - a writer, possibly) used to keep a pocket full of acorns, and walk with a pointed walking stick, occasionally stopping to make a little hole in the ground and drop an acorn into it.

I like the sound of that. I was introduced to something called gurellia gardening the other day. Basically going around planting things. I planted a few courgette seeds the other day along the canal path close to where I live. I thought as it is a busy canal (tourist town) then it would be nice that people could stop and have something to eat that is organic and free.

What one would have to watch out for is introducing plants into an eco system that cannot sustain them.

[PlayingWithFire]

This is the most interesting discussion I have had for weeks - thanks all, esp Gug for the first hand knowledge.

As for Carbon Neutral ... I scratch my head ... and just try my best, in a simply equation balance ... the less I use ... not at all scientific ... but then is that a bad thing?

Sadly, I have to venture out into the real world now and get wet.

Thanks again ~ all contributions are excellent. Just wish I could be sharing a beer with you all

[Guest]

Where do you get your supplies from? I imagine if you do a reasonable mileage, then you are going to need to buy it in fairly large quantities.

Luckily, I do a very small number of miles compared to the average road user, and me and mrs gug share a car - so she usually uses it to get to work (and lucky for her, i fill it up) - My supplies come from Asda (and others). I'd love to use waste veggie oil but i dont have any suppliers nor really the time to collect it.

I nowadays, generally only use supermarkets for bulk stuff (as has been discussed in other boards here at selfsufficientish) - I might go into asda, grab about 4 or 5 3l bottles of veg oil along with my other stuff and then pay cash :)

Its incredible the electronic methods customs and excise will go to catch us terrible criminals (just read http://www.bio-power.co.uk) for interesting information) - and yes, i'm posting through an anonymous US proxy at the moment !
I dont want to sound like a paranoid nut, but if you ever thought your email was even moderately private, then think again.

With LPG, a lot of people ask about sneakily using bottled propane, or even tapping off stuff from their domestic storage tank. The advantage, in their eyes, is that they avoid paying road fuel duty.

Yes, I see this a lot. I have absolutely no aversion to paying road fuel tax (even though, the less i give to this current govt the better) - however Customs and Excise make you go through such a song and dance just to bung a bit of veggie oil in your tank that its totally over the top (IMHO).
I could understand if i was a commercial biodiesel processor - but not just to be individually environmentally friendly.
The other day I had a conversation with my father about veg oil / diesel etc, and he said to me "So, What do you save ?" - to which my reply was "er, The planet" ? - he's never been too environmentally on the ball, my old man.