ARRRGH Children please please give me advice!

[Millymollymandy]

(having been on the receiving end I really don't see what the big deal is)

MMM, my wife was smacked on the backside but her brother was smacked in the face - no big deal?

What I call smacking is the usual smack on the bum, hand, or perhaps back of leg or arm. It doesn't really hurt, just stings a bit sometimes! I don't call that hitting or violence. I certainly don't condone hitting children in the face (that's hitting not smacking) or getting the strap out! So perhaps there is a difference in English language usage here. I never even got 'spanked' which implies repeated smacking on the bum! I grew up in a house full of love and respect and manners and my family are close and we all love each other, we have never ever fallen out like other families often do. I have the utmost respect for my mum who brought us up singlehandledly after we moved to England, who felt that she had to be much stricter with us as she didn't have my dad around to pass punishments on to, so it was tough on her. Punishment was often not smacking but other things as well, which were miles worse as I got older. I'd much rather have had a smack than have been forbidden to go out to some 'do' with my friends!!

However my original point is that I am neither traumatised by the 'violence' I received at the hands of my mum (and back in the early days probably my dad) nor have I turned into a violent adult. I don't condone violence towards either people, animals OR property. I am totally law abiding and help old ladies cross streets.

I am not commenting on the main issue of this thread because I dont have any advice on how to bring up children. Mostly I was commenting on your earlier comment to point out that I have not become a violent adult because I was smacked as a child. Perhaps the serial killer comment was a bit glib and for that I apologise.

[TheGoodEarth]

I never even got 'spanked' which implies repeated smacking on the bum!

I hope as an adult you have managed to!

[Millymollymandy]

No cos it hurts!! See I haven't even got into S&M either.

[Milims]

I haven't even got into S&M either.

Well where do you buy you pants vests and cardies from then????

[Millymollymandy]

I'm not dyslexic either!!

[Big Al]

See this is all Big Al's fault!!!!

I think the majority of people will physically chastise a child, however those wonderful people who don't have such a smug argument.

No as a parent I can not justify hitting my child, when I do I reallise it is me that has failed, the angry slapping shouting Mum in the Supermarket makes my blood boil, voilence is not the answer...... BUT

It works when used in small amounts.

Told you the PC brigade would love me

If must be possible for anyone to set boundaries,through penalties and rewards,RIGIDLY applied,without resorting to violence.My kids were (one still is) constantly testing the boundaries,but like the others(11 and 6) he is learning that when mum and the old bloke are happy with his behaviour,life is loads of fun,and when he does something unacceptable it aint.It's all increasingly difficult with the pressures people are under to keep a roof over your head etc. It's just too easy to resort to smacking,and if they dont respond favourably what then?..slap harder?..more often?
I've come across as judgemental (which for anyone who knows me would be hilarious) but that's not intentional,but violence towards children must be wrong,''It never did me any harm''..... well if it meant you're prepared to do it yourself, it did.
Would you hit your children if they were big enough to hit you back?

So OJ, physical chastising is out and that's fine for your way of parenting but what do you replace physical punishment with? For instance, If all actions have consequenses both good and bad depending on the action then if you praise or reward for the good actions there must be a negative consequence for negative actions.

If that is a given, then when you say that life is not fun for the son if he does something unacceptable, who decides what is acceptable or not? If a child, say, Puts a cat in a box and locks it up " to see what happens" then that might be acceptable to the child but not the cat or the person who owns the cat. On the other hand if the child is a budding astrophysicist trying to recreat shrodinger cat hypothosis then an adult could see what he was doing. Would there be negative consequenses then? It all depends on { presumably your} interpritation of a given set of events.

If physical punishment is out then do you use psycological torture ( provocastive use of words) ?
For your last question, my son is 21 now and taller than me and I don't need to hit him but if the need arises he knows I would hit him but at the same time he knows I'd lay my life down for him
As this, at this time is the last post on this topic ( until the next post that is) Can I offer, and ask for a

As for offering advice to jessiebean I'd like to offer you JB my heart felt hugs but that isn't going to solve the situation. I do understand about the tools in a puddle and all the other things you mention because I've been there all be it 20 years ago but I did go down the smacking route. If you have tried all the other ways of no smacking punishment etc and they haven't worked then follow my lead and don't have any fear of corpral punishment. Tan the little buggers arse but make sure he knows what it's for and then tell the other one that is what he will get if he mis behaves. If that doesn't work then my only other sugestion is to seek external help from a child behaviour specialist etc but again I know what stigma that can have.
........For the PC brigade who are going to slag me off ............. smacking the kids is better than nailing one foot to the floor..... ( it wears a circle in the carpet...)

[Milims]

Having re-read this thread, it seems that JB is looking for some practical advice. So how about we do a sort of 101 practical tips to help out. It may well be that your tip has been mentioned already - but it's worth saying again so that they are all together.
Here goes:
1 Cupboard locks
2 Turn door handles upside down on rooms that you don't want them to go into - even if it only works for a wee while it buys you some time to come up with another solution (doesn't work with door knobs tho! )
3 Perfect the Mummy stare and tone of voice - sometimes it can all be down to body language to let them know they've gone far enough.

Right - now it's your turn!

[Jessiebean]

Thaks Milims thats just what I need- stack up the tips and hints- some of them won't work for me but definitely worth adding as may help someone else out and many of the ips are getting lost amongst vitriol and so forth!(and Big Al- your advice is helpful- if the worst my kiddies do is smack their children when they are being naughty I think that I have done agood job- my Mum didn't smack me but she did undermine my self-esteem and self confidence and made me feel like I was unimportant- I would NEVER want my children to feel like that no matter how naughty they were)

Unfortunately we have a dumpy old cottage with rattley old knobs but it is a good suggestion for handles!
Mummy stare worked yesterday on the little one.
I installed a fridge lock and my four year old said "Is that a fridge lock? 'cos we will get into the little one at the top- not the fridge" and sure enough he was stealing frozen biccies to eat under the bed this morning so I guess another one for the freezer today!
If i could get around the eldest needing to use the loo in the morning I would quite simply barricade themin their bedroom until they learned they we not to come out (leave a tin of breakfast sandwiches and cups of water- the place would be trashed but at least it wuld be only in their room)

I explained four times this morning about the importance of doing what we asked and why we ask them to do things, what makes us cross and why they are punished but they just don't seem to care- I am almost tempted to give them a lump of coal in their christmas stocking each but they are too young to understand that one- they would probably form a vigilante group(the two of them a stick and a toy dog with no eyes) out to hunt down father Christmas for his presents.
I just hope that this is all a phase and this time next year (or maybe by Easter) I will be on here being smug about my angelic children hmmm...

MMM I think I published my confusing post before I had finished writing it let alone reading it- it was in no way a dig at you- I applaud you for your viewpoint and standing by it!

[becks77]

Hi JB,
Hope you are all OK down in Aus, I haven't posted for ages but have read this thread with much interest.
I Have 3 girls they are now 17,14 and 12 the first 2 were little angels, we had the occasional tantrums etc but nothing really major I can remember then came along DD3 that was a real eye opener and we really had to step back and consider the problems ahe was throwing at us. for instance I would be driving and she would undo her safety seat and stand in the middle of the car(I would pull over immediately) and battle to get her back in her seat, she would use her ironing board technique and I would wait, eventually after a real long time (sometimes up to 30mins)she would give in...presumably because we weren't getting to where she wanted to go. There was the black paint on the walls incident, painting the new carpet etc to name just a few. When she got to about 4 she would kick scream and bite..but usually only me (I was the stay home partner), we eventually took her to the doctor who sent us to the local mental health people to give us and her strategies to deal with her anger...they didn't work, and she became more abusive,this is at 6 and 7 years old mind, so we have come up with our own strategies. We have come to the conclusions, it appears she is a mirror to my/our feelings if we are tired upset angry she will (still ) give it back but twice as bad, so we try very hard , and it is hard to keep a calm house, when she does do wrong because she is very bright she soon sees through any punishments (if that makes sense) meaning you cant keep using the same punishment you have to really find alternatives, like you the reward chart worked for a while,carrying through threats of grounding works for a while, but the one that really stopped her in her tracks was when she was giving me back chat for something and I took a deep breath and laughed she just couldn't understand it and humphed off to her room. Problem solved for a while.
The problem you have I think is that your boys are very smart and no-one strategy will work maybe you could keep all be it a mental note of what works for a while and store that but come back to it using that good old phrase.."remember when such and such happened...."
Oh the other thing that throws her is to give her great big hugs, mid bad behavior and tell her how much we love her, oh and not to forget it is the behaviour that is bad,not the child, but to use these strategies I have to be in control of the situation and keep my wits about me and anticipate what may happen next.Not saying you dont but taking a deep breath and counting to 10,20 in our house often gives me enough time to think ,
Each child is different and there is no definitative answer but hopefully there are some useful hints, wishing you all a peaceful Yuletide
Becks

[Milims]

Having re-read this thread, it seems that JB is looking for some practical advice. So how about we do a sort of 101 practical tips to help out. It may well be that your tip has been mentioned already - but it's worth saying again so that they are all together.
Here goes:
1 Cupboard locks
2 Turn door handles upside down on rooms that you don't want them to go into - even if it only works for a wee while it buys you some time to come up with another solution (doesn't work with door knobs tho! )
3 Perfect the Mummy stare and tone of voice - sometimes it can all be down to body language to let them know they've gone far enough.

Right - now it's your turn!

4 Make eye contact If you are about to speak to them seriously or tell them off, before you start make sure you have eye contact and maintain it throughout. It may mean that you have to firmly but gently hold their face in the right direction, ie looking at you, but it is important that you do it so that you can speak directly to them and that you know that their attention if directly on you. I do it even now with my teens.
5 Be one step ahead. It really is easier than you think. You say that you have experienced them creeping up behind you and leaping on your back whilst cooking. Then you will be aware of their presence and the sounds they make. As soon as the start to come towards you stop what you are doing, turn quickly, put your hand out like a traffic policeman and say "NO!" firmly. It means developing your Mummy third eye and ear - but it's worth it.
6 NO is an amazing word. Kids are great at pester power but all you have to do is say "NO" and repeat it as often as they say their thing. At some point you may want to stop and ask"Which part of NO don't you understand?" to give them a break! "NO!" also works to stop naughtinesses in their tracks - see above. Small word, simple tool - works well!
7 Don't argue. If you don't want them to do something say "NO" and remove them from it. Even if you have to do it 10 or 20 times be as determined as they are, and then some! They will get the message sooner than you think.
8 Mirror their behaviour My son once threw a tantrum in a shop so I took him outside onto the street, still raging, and said sweetly "darling if you must have a tantrum please do it properly - like this...." and promptly stomped, stamped, jumped, screamed, roared and waved my arm about. He stopped immediately and begged me to stop because I was embarrassing him! I said "well now you know how I feel!" He didn't do it again!
9 Distraction Tantrums in wee ones are sometimes hard to stop - especially when they reach the stage where they don't know what they are doing. So with a cool, damp face cloth, silently, calmly and gently wipe their face and hands and don't stop until they are calmer. Then give them a big cuddle.
10 Stay calm Make "and this too shall pass" your mantra. Remind youself that you love them unconditionally. If necessary go outside scream and come back in calmly and face them. You are the grown up, you are stronger and more experienced than they are. Use it!

Right who's next? I don't want to come across all Super Nanny!

[boboff]

Don't Nag.

Let them do somethings which are fun, join in with them, let them fall over, get wet, get dirty, cut themselves, and when they do laugh with them.

Save your disciplining for important things.

Try and practice saying yes to there requests, can i have a biscuit, can I feed the cat, can I get my lego out, ask yourself whether your objection to them doing something is reasonable, i.e. is saying no to Lego because you just finished tidying up really valid?

Involve them in your jobs, get them done, then spend the saved time just with them.

Have manners with your child, say goodmorning, ask them how they slept, how they feel today, let them ask you how you are, it's surprising if once in a while you say I am tired etc, they can be very supportive.

Lots of hugs and I love you's.

This is the most important one of all though.

Absolutely insist that they get at least 10 hours sleep a night, preferably 12, if this means going to bed at 7, then that is what it means, it should not be an option to avoid this. Make sure that there is no TV in the morning at all, they sometime want to get up early just to watch TV! If they get up early, put them to bed early, and join them if you are tired too. A familiy where everyone has had enough sleep is a happy family.

Oh and on the breakfast thing, Set up a breakfast table, with cereal and toast and Tea, and get everyone up and dressed, and sitting down to breakfast together. Happy smiley Mummy, helping pour and spoon and spread, Happy Smiley Daddy prodding and poking and messing up hair. get them to put away and wash up with you, then praise the clean kitchen you are left with, "see you can do it, well done"

I would also say that don't take it all on your shoulders, talk calmly with OH about what he can do to help you.

Think long and hard about whether you are happy, and what you can do if you are not. In many households if you are depressed / unhappy then this can lead to many problems and issues, even if you don't believe me, Trust me on the sleep thing.

[Milims]

Nice one Boboff

[Netty]

Certainly being one step ahead and heading things off before they have chance to become an issuse works for us. Come rain or shine, if I can feel things are going to escalate, we go out for a walk. All of us come back in a better frame of mind and without the stress.

No, most definately means no in our house. Not no one day and maybe the next.

I guess each child is different and each of us have different levels of tolerance. For example paints (which are always out in our house) are often accidentally spilled on the table (sometimes the chairs/carpet) that I can accept. Paint deliberately painted onto eachothers clothes is not. Paints were confiscated for a few days....I know a few friends of mine couldn't bare the thought of paint being tipped everywhere, its not acceptable for them, but doesn't worry us. Its not to say we are right and they are wrong or vice versa. We are just different, with different ways of parenting.

Annette xx

[Jessiebean]

Thanks Becks77, Milims, Boboff and Netty.
Becks77, how difficult for you- I can see that kiddies"mirroring" your moods could be an issue here too. I remember as babies they were always more fractious and screamy when I was tired and stressed( whose idea was that one? I must have words with the designer of babies on that issue) and our little ones are "passionate" so it could be a factor.
Milims and Netty- the word no could be a factor too, perhaps I am not as consistent with my NO as I need to be even though it seems to me I am and that is why they think they can push me further.
Boboff- against every intuitive bone in my body we hauled ourselves out of bed this morning when we heard the first stirrings from them (luckily it was at 6.30am and not 5am like it was a couple of days ago) and things went well. Much better than other days.
I can't stand telly in the mornings and have been lucky enough to secure a husband who feels the same (despite both of us living with family members and housemates who all watched morning telly) and so the telly will never be a factor on early morning rising here. We are sticklers for sleep for them too, in winter it is a straight 7pm bedtime, summer slips a bit to between 7 and 8pm due to the daylight saving as they are harder to settle...
Hopfully a few small changes can make the difference... unfortunately punishments and rewards don't seem to have the effect that I would like with my little ones (although praise does mostly)

[Netty]

Oh goodness, bedtimes!!! Non existent in our household! They go to bed with us, what ever time that may be - shock horror - sometimes as late as midnight (*whispers* or later) and get up when they are ready. One of the (smaller) reasons we went down the home ed route was so that we could continue with this arrangement. I run a B&B and this means that I get to finish breakfast and usually the cleaning before they even wake up. The rest of the day is our own. That, and the fact that DH works very long hours, and if the girls were in bed at a "normal" bedtime hour, he wouldn't get to see them, nor them him. Again, each to their own. I have a friend with twins who couldn't even begin to imagine her's not having their bedtime routine and being in bed by 6, mainly so that she gets to have her evening off. And neither could I imagine doing things her way! Mine have always slept well and again what works for us isn't necessarily right for the next, but we are happy, the girls thriving, so that's good enough for us :0)