Dishwashers v Hand washing

[doofaloofa]

If you look at the embodied energy of the dishwasher then hand washing has to be far more environmentally friendly.

If your machine lasts 20 years, less so

[Flo]

Not a problem here - social housing with a kitchen so designed that neither dishwasher nor drying machine can fit in. Probably neither had been invented when the place was built in 1960 - or the tenants were all thought to be far too poor to afford such luxuries.

[ina]

Not a problem here - social housing with a kitchen so designed that neither dishwasher nor drying machine can fit in.

My kitchen doesn't even have sensible space for a fridge...

[Flo]

Is that because you live in a place designed as a shoe box, designed before these things were invented, or designed for the poor who can't afford them? Or all three?

[ina]

A bit of all - in fact, it was designed at a time when they thought that in a few years we'd have nuclear power and it would be so cheap that we could afford to ignore anything to do with energy efficient... The space that they provided for fridge and freezer is in a tiny cupboard which also doubles up as larder. Now, anybody with a little knowledge of how fridges work (i.e. they take the heat out of the fridge and disperse it into the wider environment) knows that keeping a fridge in an enclosed space means this space will get very warm very quickly, making it unsuitable for use as a larder plus, because the fridge now sits in a very warm space, will make the fridge have to work harder and harder to keep it cold - i.e., it'll use masses of electricity and break down very quickly, too! So a definite non-starter. Fortunately, the Scottish climate being what it is, for half the year the temperature outside is about fridge temperature, anyway. The claypot cooler that I use helps for the rest of the year.

More proof that they relied on very cheap electricity is documented by the fact that all the main windows are north facing (although perfectly good walls facing east and south could have been used instead), and that they installed very inefficient storage heaters... Also, the immersion heater, which could provide a little warmth from the heat it inevitably loses, is in the attic, above all the massive insulation they've had to put in, so it very nicely warms the rest of the world, and keeps the house cool... I'd gladly kick the responsible architect in the behind, but he may well not be around any more.

BUT - I have a proper little garden (most of the houses around here only have small areas of chuckies), and I have today received my wonderful new shed, so it's not all bad! :)

[Flo]

You determined to stay put ina? I'd have sacked that house!

[ina]

Beggars can't be choosers! I quite like the area, nice neighbours... And I've stayed in worse houses, and paid more for it, too.

[Skippy]

My wife's sister has been telling us for some time that we should get a dishwasher , ignoring the fact that there isn't anywhere to put one. My own gut reaction has always been that we don't need one but to shut her yap up at least a bit I've tried a bit of research. One starting point was zech's link. As said in that link a survey sponsored by manufacturers could just be likely to come up with the result those manufactures want to see.
Now I find a little more research has if anything clouded the issue more. Firstly while it seems that in terms of energy and water use the dishwasher wins it tends to ignore that hand washing is still needed for items that shouldn't go them such as cast iron , non stick , crystal , and some wooden stuff . However , against that could be considered the other uses for dishwashers . Google what can go in one and it comes up with all sorts of things , toys, combs , brushes , shoes , clothing , computer keyboards ( although that one is treated with caution ) and garden equipment .
With regards to the last item I've washed my plant pots etc in the washing up water after the dishes are done , it being still warm and soapy and then flushed the toilet with the water after that. How to put that into the equation . Generally our washing up water is used to flush the downstairs toilet.
Another use mentioned on the web was to cook fish. The fish is effectively steamed owing to the high temperatures in the machines although I can't see it being very efficient to do that and of course the tablets aren't used. Mentioning tablets I can't find any comparisons of tablet use verse washing up liquid use , again my gut instinct there is that it's more costly to use tablets on a per wash basis. Then it seems the tablets have a higher salt content than liquids and I wonder if that has any envoirmental impact?
As I said it's not any clearer to me and until I finish the kitchen extension it's not an option but I do like to know as much as possible.

[Flo]

Must admit that the daughter bought an extensive amount of lego off gumtree for a xmas present for a small in the family and put it through the dishwasher, the small bits in a colander. She said at the price at a tenner paid for what would have been three figures retail a run through the dishwasher was cheap enough.

[Zech]

while it seems that in terms of energy and water use the dishwasher wins

I'm curious about how you came to that conclusion, since I came to the opposite one.

I never wanted a dishwasher, but did have one for three years because it was in the house when I moved in. I didn't like the damage it did to some of my old pans (wooden handles will never be the same again) or the way it clouded glasses. Quite often - I think when we'd had baked beans - everything came out with a layer of dirt baked on. My main objection to the thing, though, was that it failed to make my husband do the washing up!

[Green Aura]

My main objection to the thing, though, was that it failed to make my husband do the washing up!

I've had exactly the opposite experience, Zech. It comes under the category of "gadget", so he was quite happy to play. And I was quite happy to let him.

[diggernotdreamer]

What the hell is that stuff called, the stuff that gets on everything that looks like bran, you never put any bran in the machine but everything comes out covered in bran

[Skippy]

while it seems that in terms of energy and water use the dishwasher wins

I'm curious about how you came to that conclusion, since I came to the opposite one.

To be honest I did say it seems to win rather than a definate win but sorry if I've not been clear. From what I've gleaned from 'tinterweb new dishwashers are claimed to be a lot more efficient than older models both in terms of energy consumption and water use although against that a new condensing boiler will use less gas to heat the bowl of water than an older boiler. In the comparative tests such as the one mentioned in your link it does wash like for like but curiously disregards all that stuff that can't go into the machine and has to be hand washed. That water and energy should in my opinion be added to the dishwashers totals. Funny you should mention the clouding on the glasses as where we were staying there were several beer glasses that were opaque enough to use a bathroom window pane.
Those surveys do also seem to rely on the dishwashers being full to achieve peak efficiency although there is a similiar argument if one fills a bowl to hand wash a mug or two I suppose. Indeed some of the idea that hand washing is inefficient seems to stem from the idea that people are rinsing in running hot water. Personally I tend to be able to rinse quite a bit from the filling tap as I start washing as soon as I can , putting some cold in the small bowl to rinse the last things. Also not considered is the embodied energy , both of the machine and additional tableware that may be required to fill the machine to give peak efficiency.
As I said , albeit perhaps a little unclearly , it would seem a dishwasher can claim victory if looked at in a narrow aspect but I'm still not fully convinced that the overall picture is swayed that way. When we were away there were seven adults and two kids and the machine was used daily. At home it would take nearer a week to fill with two adults and a nine year old. However , throw in a foster baby ( not into the dishwasher in case any social workers are reading this ) and we haven't enough bottle to last that long and prefer to wash them up as soon as possible anyway.
I think if it were purely down to that I'd be dead set against them but the reading of what else they can be used for has intrigued me as the versatility may then be a factor. It'd be nice to know if anyone on here has cleaned their plant pots , wellys , dogs toys in one and even better to hear if someone has actually steamed a fish in one too.

[ina]

and even better to hear if someone has actually steamed a fish in one too.

I tend to steam fish on a bed of vegetables - don't think the dishwasher could cope with that!

[Skippy]

Ok one more question.
It seems to me that the damage that occurs to , say glassware , is the result of the abrasive nature of the tablets. I'm not sure what they consist of although they seem to have a high salt content among other things. I'm also thinking that the tablets work out more expensive on a cost per plate type of basis than hand washing with fluid. Now to the question , do I have to use the tablets or could I just squirt in a blob or two of washing up liquid instead?
To be honest I wasn't expecting anyone to really have steamed fish in a dishwasher but maybe sterilising jam pots etc. is more likely.