Paper is...well, not just wood pulp. Even newspaper has usually been bleached, and one of the byproducts of the bleacing process is dioxon, one of the most poisonous compounds ever discovered. Birth defects, chronic nerve damage, early death - you name it: dioxin can provide it, no problem. And, it sticks around for a looooong time.
Grass cuttings tend to matt together, and must be fluffed up with other stuff if they're going to compost well, i.e. hot and fast - but it will rot down just fine even in a huge pile, given enough time and a bit of water once in a while.
But paper? Er, not for me, thanks...unless it's completely unbleached as well as shredded!
Compost question
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hedgewizard
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This alarmed me sufficiently to read around the subject, since I add shredded (bleached) paper to my compost.
Incidentally, unless "unbleached" paper is made from virgin pulp it will still have dioxin contamination in it from the last time it was pulped, so there... if dioxin contamination in your compost is worrying you then don't compost paper at all. Like I said, it's nutritionally "empty" as well. A bit like the compost version of a happy meal, except without the crap toy.
Dutch compost pulled from sale because of dioxin contamination, caused by waste from an animal fats renderer.German DoE wrote:We are not aware of standards or guidelines for dioxin in compost, but it
is not very important, because normally the dioxin from compost is not
assimilated by plants.The average level of dioxin found in biocompost is 14 pg/g (Hagenmaier,1992) and in sludge from municipal waste water treatment, also used in agriculture, the average is 62 ng/g.The amount of dioxin accumulating via worms to birds will not be high, compared with the more important accumulation route via cows directly eating contaminated dust (in general from incinerators) on grass to cowmilk - diary products - human fat/milk - babies.
NaturTech Composting Systems wrote:They are both found in all types of bleached paper. Chlorine is a concern
in the production of paper, not in the paper itself. Dioxins have been
greatly reduced over the past decades and are in q-tips, napkins, feminine
hygiene products, milk cartons, and virtually all bleached paper
products. If the dioxin levels in paper, which are in the parts per
trillions, are a concern for the soil, then we are at the point where we
should be banning all paper products. It is not appropriate to single out
composting as a carrier of dioxins. The real culprit with dioxins is
incineration, not composting.
To summarize, with the *very faintly possible* exception of curcubits, uptake of dioxins by veg from composted paper is unimportant compared to atmospheric contamination when we handle paper products. Animals concentrate contamination from incerator dust, and that is a far more significant problem (for omnivores anyway).mindfully.org wrote:"Weak positive relationships between soil and plant contamination levels in unpeeled root crops, leafy vegetables, tree fruits, and hay, and little or no associations for peeled root crops, peas and beans, grass, or herbs. Stronger relationships were observed for plants of the cucumber family. In all cases, very large increases in soil PCDD/F concentration (due to experimental contamination) were required to achieve a measurable increase in plant contamination. At soil PCDD/F concentrations associated with biosolids application, the expected increase in plant concentration would be minimal."
Incidentally, unless "unbleached" paper is made from virgin pulp it will still have dioxin contamination in it from the last time it was pulped, so there... if dioxin contamination in your compost is worrying you then don't compost paper at all. Like I said, it's nutritionally "empty" as well. A bit like the compost version of a happy meal, except without the crap toy.
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Muddypause
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digiveg
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While I agree with Hedgie's info re. veggie uptake of dioxins, I think there's probably a whole lot more going on that hasn't been tested for: such as, uptake by living organisms in the affected earth.
I've lost count of the number of things that I've been told are OK only to hear years later that actually they're now considered to be extremely harmful. Quite possibly the risks of adding dioxin to compost won't turn out to be one of them, but I still don't want to take the risk - because usually the results are 1) awful and 2) impossible, or very difficult, to reverse.
Aside from that, I enjoy knowing, or at least believing, that the earth in my veggie garden is as OK as I can help it to be.
Another consideration for those adding paper to the earth is the stuff added to printing inks. While these have improved a lot in recent years, i.e. reds and yellows aren't likely to contain much cadmium any more, and cobalt is less common in blue colours, the inks themselves are usually a petroleum oil base as the use of soy-based ink, while growing, is still less common. So, we're dealing with some level of hydrocarbon pollution here, too. Even unbleached corrugated cardboard, which is therefore OK on the dioxin issue, is often heavily printed with lots of lovely colours!
Paper is often coated with all kinds of nasties, as well. I don't have time or the skills to figure out whether they're harmful in the long-term or not, and until that day comes (unlikely...) I won't add them to my garden.
So, paper is still very much out as far as my compost is concerned - with one exception: unbleached coffee filters!
I've lost count of the number of things that I've been told are OK only to hear years later that actually they're now considered to be extremely harmful. Quite possibly the risks of adding dioxin to compost won't turn out to be one of them, but I still don't want to take the risk - because usually the results are 1) awful and 2) impossible, or very difficult, to reverse.
Aside from that, I enjoy knowing, or at least believing, that the earth in my veggie garden is as OK as I can help it to be.
Another consideration for those adding paper to the earth is the stuff added to printing inks. While these have improved a lot in recent years, i.e. reds and yellows aren't likely to contain much cadmium any more, and cobalt is less common in blue colours, the inks themselves are usually a petroleum oil base as the use of soy-based ink, while growing, is still less common. So, we're dealing with some level of hydrocarbon pollution here, too. Even unbleached corrugated cardboard, which is therefore OK on the dioxin issue, is often heavily printed with lots of lovely colours!
Paper is often coated with all kinds of nasties, as well. I don't have time or the skills to figure out whether they're harmful in the long-term or not, and until that day comes (unlikely...) I won't add them to my garden.
So, paper is still very much out as far as my compost is concerned - with one exception: unbleached coffee filters!
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digiveg
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Sorry, 2 posts in a row - but I wanted to be a bit more specific after re-reading the info Hedgie posted.
Re. the quote from the German DoE:
First, dioxin from plants IS assimilated by plants, according to the third quote from 'mindfully.org' (weak positive relationships...etc). I don't believe that simply because the level found in biocompost is only a quarter of that in municpal waste water sludge means it's OK, and not something to worry about. Similarly, I don't find that a lower level of accumulation via worms to birds is any less of a concern, in the longer view, than that of a lower level in milk products. As far as I'm aware, dioxins stick around for a long time, so soil levels will increase as time passes - possibly to the point at which they ARE a concern even to the DoE. And then what? Bin the earth?
Re. the quote from NaturTech:
No, of course we shouldn't be banning all paper products. That's a silly thing for them to say, seeing as lots of paper is not chlorine-bleached and therefore dioxin-free. What should probably be banned is the chlorine bleaching process itself, as that is the cause. So I don't agree that the 'real culprit' is incineration, which is just spreading the results after the real culprit - chlorine bleaching - has already happened.
And re. 'midfully.org':
Personally I prefer to eat the skins of my root veggies, and I don't want to feel that I have to peel everything first - which, if I thought that dioxins were involved at all, I would. Once again, given the longevity of dioxins, rather than just looking at current levels in any soil sample it is the potential accumulation over time that should be considered. For instance, how long ago would soil samples have shown NO dioxin levels at all? 50 years? 25 years? Biologically, that's the blink of an eye. And given current levels, how much is likely to be there 50 years from now? And if it's a higher concentration, will it be...OK? Or just pretty good?
So, no composted paper for me!
Re. the quote from the German DoE:
First, dioxin from plants IS assimilated by plants, according to the third quote from 'mindfully.org' (weak positive relationships...etc). I don't believe that simply because the level found in biocompost is only a quarter of that in municpal waste water sludge means it's OK, and not something to worry about. Similarly, I don't find that a lower level of accumulation via worms to birds is any less of a concern, in the longer view, than that of a lower level in milk products. As far as I'm aware, dioxins stick around for a long time, so soil levels will increase as time passes - possibly to the point at which they ARE a concern even to the DoE. And then what? Bin the earth?
Re. the quote from NaturTech:
No, of course we shouldn't be banning all paper products. That's a silly thing for them to say, seeing as lots of paper is not chlorine-bleached and therefore dioxin-free. What should probably be banned is the chlorine bleaching process itself, as that is the cause. So I don't agree that the 'real culprit' is incineration, which is just spreading the results after the real culprit - chlorine bleaching - has already happened.
And re. 'midfully.org':
Personally I prefer to eat the skins of my root veggies, and I don't want to feel that I have to peel everything first - which, if I thought that dioxins were involved at all, I would. Once again, given the longevity of dioxins, rather than just looking at current levels in any soil sample it is the potential accumulation over time that should be considered. For instance, how long ago would soil samples have shown NO dioxin levels at all? 50 years? 25 years? Biologically, that's the blink of an eye. And given current levels, how much is likely to be there 50 years from now? And if it's a higher concentration, will it be...OK? Or just pretty good?
So, no composted paper for me!
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hedgewizard
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OK, OK, I'm convinced - if not to ban paper completely from my compost, then at least to stop using shredded prescription "browns" to counteract my "greens". It strikes me that a 25:25:50 mix of grass:paper:everything else is probably not very nutritious stuff, even if it does look lovely.
Boots and MMM have given me the answer to this problem though, along with the bods I was reading input from earlier. My grass can be balanced itself, just by letting it dry out a bit first, or it can be used as a mulch elsewhere. To replace the "browns" still needed, I have three leaf bins that I can never remember to water so they compost really slowly. Perhaps I should move them up to the composter, and fork some in every time things look a bit soggy: while still relatively poor nutritionally they're at least dioxin-free.
This way the only paper that'll get into my compost is the (recycling) liner from the bottom of the composting caddy!
Boots and MMM have given me the answer to this problem though, along with the bods I was reading input from earlier. My grass can be balanced itself, just by letting it dry out a bit first, or it can be used as a mulch elsewhere. To replace the "browns" still needed, I have three leaf bins that I can never remember to water so they compost really slowly. Perhaps I should move them up to the composter, and fork some in every time things look a bit soggy: while still relatively poor nutritionally they're at least dioxin-free.
This way the only paper that'll get into my compost is the (recycling) liner from the bottom of the composting caddy!
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Boots
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Well, am afraid it hasn't put me off one iota. Mainly because there has been no alternative method of recycling/disposal suggested.
If we stop composting paper, and burning is out because it produces even more dioxins, what else do we do with it?
Drives me nuts when folks present problems without solutions... really does. Especially when their suggestions just tend to lead to more mass dumping in landfill creating more contained chemical cocktails that my kids will probably buy someday and try to exist on.
Paper... I am surrounded by the stuff! Whether pulped or shredded, I consider it a useful addition to soil that is unworkable to start with, so I won't be ignoring it, when I need to transform soil to grow in. It goes through all my animal pens, nesting boxes and garden beds. We have made cards, pinatas, bogged cars with it, and intend to line the roof with it. I've had goats born in it, ducks lay in it, and vegies grow in it.
Dioxins... far out man. Paper arrived in the 1400's! My family have been pumping out newspapers and involved in the printing industry for 5 generations and as far as I can tell none of us died as a result of it. Few brain explosions, mind you... but hey all in a days work...
I'd understand if digi was saying s/he uses no paper products, so has no need to recycle/dispose of it, but that's not what your saying is it, Digivege? If you don't compost it, what exactly do you do with it? Paper is a product that presents in many forms and is very well immersed in todays lifestyle.
Give me a solution here mate, and I will more than happily give it a whirl. But just saying no way, well... I dunno how that helps.
If we stop composting paper, and burning is out because it produces even more dioxins, what else do we do with it?
Drives me nuts when folks present problems without solutions... really does. Especially when their suggestions just tend to lead to more mass dumping in landfill creating more contained chemical cocktails that my kids will probably buy someday and try to exist on.
Paper... I am surrounded by the stuff! Whether pulped or shredded, I consider it a useful addition to soil that is unworkable to start with, so I won't be ignoring it, when I need to transform soil to grow in. It goes through all my animal pens, nesting boxes and garden beds. We have made cards, pinatas, bogged cars with it, and intend to line the roof with it. I've had goats born in it, ducks lay in it, and vegies grow in it.
Dioxins... far out man. Paper arrived in the 1400's! My family have been pumping out newspapers and involved in the printing industry for 5 generations and as far as I can tell none of us died as a result of it. Few brain explosions, mind you... but hey all in a days work...
I'd understand if digi was saying s/he uses no paper products, so has no need to recycle/dispose of it, but that's not what your saying is it, Digivege? If you don't compost it, what exactly do you do with it? Paper is a product that presents in many forms and is very well immersed in todays lifestyle.
Give me a solution here mate, and I will more than happily give it a whirl. But just saying no way, well... I dunno how that helps.
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hedgewizard
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Recycling it as paper, I guess. That's fine for me personally 'cos the local authority takes it away for free but if not...Boots wrote:Well, am afraid it hasn't put me off one iota. Mainly because there has been no alternative method of recycling/disposal suggested.
If we stop composting paper, and burning is out because it produces even more dioxins, what else do we do with it?
I'm still not convinced about the dioxins thing, though given what Digi does for a living he's probably worth listening to about inks.
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digiveg
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Hi Boots - Sorry to drive you nuts - maybe it's because your dioxin levels are dangerously high!
Still, as Hedgie points out, we can simply recycle the stuff. So long as more chlorine bleach isn't used in the process, no additional dioxins are created. There will be dust, but it will be more contained than if the paper was incinerated instead.
And, even though I didn't offer a remedy but merely pointed out the potential problem, I think in general problems have to happen first... then we go looking for a remedy: which seems to be exactly what has happened here.
Seems to me that our world is already stuffed with things that we just have to live with, whether we want to or not. For instance, I'd love to not use petrol, but I don't think I could deal with the results right now. If I could grow everything I needed right where I lived, then maybe it would be possible - so, that's what I'm working towards. Until then, I will (reluctantly have to) use petrol, paper, etc etc because I don't yet have a reasonable alternative. So it looks to me that (my) problems don't always have solutions - or not yet, anyway.
On another note, so to speak, paper arrived much earlier than the 1400s, which was Europe's date of entry into the world of printing - as I'm sure you knew, given your family history. The Chinese beat us all to it, though: they had printing in 650BC, and also had paper figured out long before we did.
Still, as Hedgie points out, we can simply recycle the stuff. So long as more chlorine bleach isn't used in the process, no additional dioxins are created. There will be dust, but it will be more contained than if the paper was incinerated instead.
And, even though I didn't offer a remedy but merely pointed out the potential problem, I think in general problems have to happen first... then we go looking for a remedy: which seems to be exactly what has happened here.
Seems to me that our world is already stuffed with things that we just have to live with, whether we want to or not. For instance, I'd love to not use petrol, but I don't think I could deal with the results right now. If I could grow everything I needed right where I lived, then maybe it would be possible - so, that's what I'm working towards. Until then, I will (reluctantly have to) use petrol, paper, etc etc because I don't yet have a reasonable alternative. So it looks to me that (my) problems don't always have solutions - or not yet, anyway.
On another note, so to speak, paper arrived much earlier than the 1400s, which was Europe's date of entry into the world of printing - as I'm sure you knew, given your family history. The Chinese beat us all to it, though: they had printing in 650BC, and also had paper figured out long before we did.