Musings of a Wally

[Wotta Wally]

I’ve been reading Stonehead’s blog for a while now and got to say, I do so with pleasure. I always find his entries well researched, inciteful and give me a lot to think about (OK Stonehead – you can stop blushing now!) Here is the shortcut to his latest contribution:

http://stonehead.wordpress.com/2008/03/ ... poisonous/

This has left me with a lot to think about – hence this thread.

I have been a vegetarian for nearly 20 years. Over the time, I have become more and more strict in vegetarianism even to the point of trying to buy plastic shoes rather than leather – one of the points of his article.

The whole reason that I stopped being a meat-eater was because I felt it was cruel to kill animals in what I consider is a violent fashion. This has extended over time to cruelty to animals and I am a member of many charities that support non-cruelty – RPSCA, WWF, WSPA etc. I have got to say tho', I have never rammed my views down anyone's throat, never commented if a rare steak has been served up to my dinner companion and wince at adverts like the one shown in Stonehead's blog. Even so, I still can't bring myself to eat flesh.

However, recently, I have started to rethink a lot of my values. A lot of it is influenced by my passion for the environment. So what is worse then? Buying plastic shoes using all the nasty chemicals that cause damage? Or to buy leather shoes? If I buy leather shoes, is it a true by-product of the meat industry? Am I implicitly supporting the meat industry that promulgates poor care of animals in order to get a quick profit? Is it cruelty? But then, if everyone stops buying leather, what happens to it – do we get leather mountains?

It really is difficult to get a true and proper balance. Maybe if I could be totally satisfied that the animal has led a good, cruelty-free life and that its death was without the trauma that so many animals suffer from, then maybe, just maybe, I would consider eating meat again. I think that is a VERY VERY long way off and I will probably not get there. I think the only care I would trust of an animal is my own and I don’t think I could kill a sentient being especially to eat it – or produce my shoes!

All in all, I am pleased to see this progress within myself. I am constantly re-evaluating my values and standards and like to think that I am open-minded to listen, re-think and either change or re-confirm my values. It is a hard process.

I’m just wondering whether anyone else on here has a similar struggle?

Meanwhile tho’, keep up the writing Stonehead – I love reading it; and I love reading this forum as it opens up my eyes to different points of view.

Thanks guys.

[red]

I honestly think that leather (the standard stuff, nothing fancy) is a by product and if nto used, would be thrown away.
Ethical shopping, for want of a better phrase, is a minefield. you could opt for cotton shoes.. but then what chemicals were used.. you could opt for organic fairtrade cotton, but what about the fabric-miles? if you dont buy it are you depriving a third world...etc etc.
I've always assumed vegetarians and vegans depend on more imported food than omnivores (soya etc)
it is a minefield.

[MrFalafel]

Do a little research on the commerical tanning process for leather and the amount of chemicls used (trivalent chromium sulphate, sodium sulphide, sodium sulfhydrate, arsenic, cyanide, ammonium sulphate etc). Now figure in the amount of water, feed and petrol used to grow and transport the cow, not to mention refrigeration for the meat and so on and so forth. You will find that even 'pleather' shoes are far more green and less damaging to the environment than leather shoes.

And, if you want to go one step further, you can buy fairly traded organic hemp shoes that look cool and add a spring in your step that not only were no animals killed for your shoes but no workers were exploited either :) http://www.vegetarian-shoes.co.uk/pc-39 ... black.aspx

That said, Ahimsa leather (leather made from cows that died naturally in India) does exist but its hard to find. You'd have to import it and give it to a shoe maker etc. Another option is to buy your shoes from charity shops. That way you could use up the shoe so the animal didn't die in vain and you save a few quid.

[Wotta Wally]

Think Red has hit the nail on the head - it is a minefield - and whatever anyone does, there will always be an argument against it. Hope I have at least highlighted what a dilemma it is.

Thanks for the info Mr F - and I think you have proved my point. TBH, I will probably still avoid leather shoes!

It is hard. I don't regret the decision to be vegetarian but I think we need to be open-minded as to alternatives and I am becoming more and more tolerant of meat-eaters if they are (a) sourcing good quality local meat where a free range life and care for the animal is all important and (b) able to kill what they eat/eat what they kill.

[MrFalafel]

I honestly think that leather (the standard stuff, nothing fancy) is a by product and if nto used, would be thrown away.
Ethical shopping, for want of a better phrase, is a minefield. you could opt for cotton shoes.. but then what chemicals were used.. you could opt for organic fairtrade cotton, but what about the fabric-miles? if you dont buy it are you depriving a third world...etc etc.
I've always assumed vegetarians and vegans depend on more imported food than omnivores (soya etc)
it is a minefield.

I agree it is a minefield, but it certainly is worth exploring. And its getting bette all of the time as business start getting it right on all counts. For instance, my wife runs a chocolate business and she insists the chocolate she gets in is from fair trade plantations or 'single source' collectives. But she will also source the other ingredients (ie milk) from very local farms to try and make up for the airmiles of the chocolate. And everyone involved in her supply chain is accounted for with good wages. It can be done and people are doing it.

As far as the vegans/veggies being green or not, try using this calculator once as you eat now, record the score, and then do it again but check the 'vegan' option and then compare scores. http://www.carbonindependent.org/

[MrFalafel]

Think Red has hit the nail on the head - it is a minefield - and whatever anyone does, there will always be an argument against it. Hope I have at least highlighted what a dilemma it is.

Thanks for the info Mr F - and I think you have proved my point. TBH, I will probably still avoid leather shoes!

It is hard. I don't regret the decision to be vegetarian but I think we need to be open-minded as to alternatives and I am becoming more and more tolerant of meat-eaters if they are (a) sourcing good quality local meat where a free range life and care for the animal is all important and (b) able to kill what they eat/eat what they kill.

I would have to agree. Meat/dairy etc is off of my table but I wouldn't dream of preaching at someone about what they should eat. Like you, I respect people that raise their own animals healthily and harvest their own meat in that manner. That really is the way to go about it. The local butcher shop in my village can tell a customer exactly what local field and farmer a particular cut of meat is from. Another excellent idea: locally grown, sustainable etc etc.

[red]

I agree it is a minefield, but it certainly is worth exploring. ...
As far as the vegans/veggies being green or not, try using this calculator once as you eat now, record the score, and then do it again but check the 'vegan' option and then compare scores. http://www.carbonindependent.org/

Oh I agree complete it is worth exploring, and as WW said, being open minded.

re the carbon footprint thingy.. 'fraid that just irritates me.. it gives figures for certain eating habits, with no backup at all as to how the figures are arrived at. it does not allow me to choose 'local but not necessarily organic' which is my preference for purchasing meat, and does not make allowances at all for what kind of meat I might buy.. someone raising chickens in their back yard will not be the same as someone eating cow.
when it comes to education and health, I have to like it or lump it that I live in a country that has a state school system, but in fact I home educate - apparantly the carbon has to be shared equally. huh? how come it works like that for education but not other lifestyle choices? So I'm afraid that I am cynical about that being proof that a vegetarian or vegan lifestyle is greener.

I'm an omnivore, so perhaps lack the knowledge, I just would have thought that there were some countries and climates more suited to a vegan/vegge diet - ie can grow the protein subsitutes etc locally, and guessed that in the UK you would face importing more food, such as soya.
don't misunderstand me, I personally am accountable for some imported food - wine, coffee, chocolate, spices, bananas.. I just thought if you were going to choose to avoid leather for 'green' reasons, you would have to look at everything else. Which is.. I gues, where Stoney started.

[Ellendra]

If there were a shoemaker who used veggie-tanned leather, would that be a viable alternative?

[mrsflibble]

I happen to like meat, but I make sure my meat is only ever "grown" in the british isles. I don't believe in buying brazillian beef if the irish stuff tastes just the same. my potatoes are british and I tend to buy mostly seasonal veg as it's cheaper. it's not always organic due -again- to cost.

ok, I buy bananas. I have a kilo bag of brown unrefined cane sugar in my cupboard; but that lasts us nearly a year. it tastes better on my breakfast than the over refined british stuff from good ole sugarbeet. I buy 100g of costa rican fair trade coffee from my mum's local deli every 3 months and keep it in the freezer. I take a bus and two trains to get to it. I happen to love avocados but have no idea where the actually come from, but on the other hand I don't drive. hubby does, I don't. we don't take foreign hollidays because other than the cost, there's so much more of our own country that we've not seen.

by all this reckoning, I'm greener than my sil and bil- yet they are almost vegan (no eggs, very little dairy which they're phasing out all together).

[the.fee.fairy]

I'd rather buy a pair of leather shoes that are going to give and fit and last years than a pair of pleather ones that are not oging to wear the same.

I buy a certain type of boot, and a pair can last me anywhere from 2 years to 6 years, depending on how often i wear them. I have a pair that are 2 years old and are still perfectly useable, and i wear them every day.

I also buy Doc Martens. They are long lasting leather boots.

I would rather buy leather than pleather. If the animal is going to be killed so that someone else eats it, then i want as much of the animal as possible to be used.

Having said that, i do have a pleather coat. But it has lasted me 2 or 3 winters so far... When it starts letting in water, i'll recut and reuse it...after i've cried a bit...

It is a minefield, and i think that if you're happy to buy and use what you do, then that should be enough.

Although..charity shops and Ebay are my personal favourite clothes shops!!

[Martin]

I have the great good fortune to live in the midst of the country - this afternoon, I walked the dogs through the local fields, teeming with sheep with lambs at foot, young bullocks, pheasants, rabbits.......all was well with the world........what a sad, bleak place the countryside would be if the veggies/ vegans got their way
Without us meat-eaters, so many animals just wouldn't have a life at all......
it should be a GOOD life for the animals involved - thankfully, welfare standards ARE improving, long may it continue!
I'm also within sight of the South Downs - living proof that there is farmland that is just not suited to arable use, but ideally suited for meat production. Back in "euro grain mountain" days, several greedy farmers tried ploughing up the downland to cop the hefty subsidies - as soon as it rained, the scanty topsoil all washed away..............
Leather shoes thanks!

[MrFalafel]

I agree it is a minefield, but it certainly is worth exploring. ...
As far as the vegans/veggies being green or not, try using this calculator once as you eat now, record the score, and then do it again but check the 'vegan' option and then compare scores. http://www.carbonindependent.org/

Oh I agree complete it is worth exploring, and as WW said, being open minded.

re the carbon footprint thingy.. 'fraid that just irritates me.. it gives figures for certain eating habits, with no backup at all as to how the figures are arrived at. it does not allow me to choose 'local but not necessarily organic' which is my preference for purchasing meat, and does not make allowances at all for what kind of meat I might buy.. someone raising chickens in their back yard will not be the same as someone eating cow.
when it comes to education and health, I have to like it or lump it that I live in a country that has a state school system, but in fact I home educate - apparantly the carbon has to be shared equally. huh? how come it works like that for education but not other lifestyle choices? So I'm afraid that I am cynical about that being proof that a vegetarian or vegan lifestyle is greener.

I'm an omnivore, so perhaps lack the knowledge, I just would have thought that there were some countries and climates more suited to a vegan/vegge diet - ie can grow the protein subsitutes etc locally, and guessed that in the UK you would face importing more food, such as soya.
don't misunderstand me, I personally am accountable for some imported food - wine, coffee, chocolate, spices, bananas.. I just thought if you were going to choose to avoid leather for 'green' reasons, you would have to look at everything else. Which is.. I gues, where Stoney started.

Its a common misconception that veggies eat a 'meat and potatoes diet' replacing soya for meat. When one learns about food combining of simple things like pulses and corn, that are all grown in the UK, and other plant based foods one realises that its all local and within reach.

Every now and then I buy tofu for a treat. Where is this tofu made? Newcastle! :)

[MrFalafel]

I'd rather buy a pair of leather shoes that are going to give and fit and last years than a pair of pleather ones that are not oging to wear the same.

I buy a certain type of boot, and a pair can last me anywhere from 2 years to 6 years, depending on how often i wear them. I have a pair that are 2 years old and are still perfectly useable, and i wear them every day.

I also buy Doc Martens. They are long lasting leather boots.

I would rather buy leather than pleather. If the animal is going to be killed so that someone else eats it, then i want as much of the animal as possible to be used.

Having said that, i do have a pleather coat. But it has lasted me 2 or 3 winters so far... When it starts letting in water, i'll recut and reuse it...after i've cried a bit...

It is a minefield, and i think that if you're happy to buy and use what you do, then that should be enough.

Although..charity shops and Ebay are my personal favourite clothes shops!!

I have a pair of 'pleather' boots that my friends are tired of seeing. I've had them for at least 5 years and they have they have spread the mud of my allotment on many pub floors around the area. :)

I don't buy Doc Martens since they've moved their production overseas where workers are exploited and quality control is second over corporate profits. Personally speaking, I don't to be part of that game.

But yes, I agree with 'if you're happy to buy and use what you do, then that should be enough'. I just think knowing the facts may help with that decision.

[MrFalafel]

I have the great good fortune to live in the midst of the country - this afternoon, I walked the dogs through the local fields, teeming with sheep with lambs at foot, young bullocks, pheasants, rabbits.......all was well with the world........what a sad, bleak place the countryside would be if the veggies/ vegans got their way
Without us meat-eaters, so many animals just wouldn't have a life at all......
it should be a GOOD life for the animals involved - thankfully, welfare standards ARE improving, long may it continue!
I'm also within sight of the South Downs - living proof that there is farmland that is just not suited to arable use, but ideally suited for meat production. Back in "euro grain mountain" days, several greedy farmers tried ploughing up the downland to cop the hefty subsidies - as soon as it rained, the scanty topsoil all washed away..............
Leather shoes thanks!

Me too! I live in a wonderfully rural area where lambs are being farmed and mussels are being raised. But to me, its such a waste that these acres of farmland are being used to raise such a small amount of animal based foods when they could be used to raise pulses and veggies that we can all enjoy with far less impact on the environment. And I personally get a pang in my chest knowing that the playful lamb jumping around the field only has weeks to live before being killed for someones dinner.

But we all have different ideas on this and I respect meat eaters and the rest. I'm just trying to help dispell some myths?

[Martin]

do I have to repeat it again?
"I'm also within sight of the South Downs - living proof that there is farmland that is just not suited to arable use, but ideally suited for meat production. Back in "euro grain mountain" days, several greedy farmers tried ploughing up the downland to cop the hefty subsidies - as soon as it rained, the scanty topsoil all washed away.............
even having quoted it, you STILL missed the point - it is NOT SUITABLE for growing crops, but is ideal for sheep!
I'll put it down to lack of vital nutrients!