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Graye wrote: However I love the slow build up approach to the controlled smacking. Did the "dread factor" actually work? Also, I suspect I see more boys than girls being particularly difficult as toddlers. Is this likely?

In a word - yes! Although about a year later he behaved in such a way that I had the threaten to smack him again - so I told him to take his trousers off in preparation. About 5 mins later he threatened to run away so I opened the door for him, but when he asked for his trousers I told him that if he really thought I was so bad that he had to run away he would do it without being bothered about wearing trousers! He decided to stay home!
I think that because I've always tried to use punishment to fit the crime, (eg throwing a temper tantrum in the street when he did, or giving him a full face of makeup in his sleep and not nagging him to wash his face in the morning, or taking him to see the inside of a police cell accompanied by a stern talking to from a policeman when he stole from my purse) I've somehow managed to show him that the effects of his behaviour don't feel nice, rather than just painful. I think that part of the trouble with smacking instantly is that children don't end up understanding how their behaviour affects others, because the don't feel how it affects them IYKWIM. They don't feel the embarrassment, hurt, humiliation etc that throwing a tantrum gives when they are throwing it and the only way they are going to know how it feels is if they experience it themselves and then decide whether or not they like it and want to feel that way. Children are clean slates, they have lots to experience, both positive and negative, in order to make an informed decision about how they want to behave in life. If the only information we give is that certain behaviours end in pain then that's not very productive. Obviously there are things that we want them to know in a safe manner will end in pain - like sticking your fingers in a socket - and therefore something like a flick on the back of the hand will work to stop it, but how will they know what the rest feels like if they never have the opportunity to feel it?

I think the short answer to that is that they learn by being smacked that they've caused offense and aren't going to get away with it, and then either figure out why on the spot, or later when they're better intellectually equipped to do so. Personally, I'd prefer that my son knows early on what causes other people offense, than that he find out from somebody who isn't prepared to explain it to him for ten minutes, or however long it takes (I wonder if people who are brought up by totally gentle, rational parents get a nasty shock when they leave that happy bubble...?).

Now that my son understands reasoning, I reason with him.

npsmama - sorry - we seem to have hijacked this thread a bit. I guess we are all just trying to let you know that you are as "normal" as the rest of us You are being a good mum and you truly aren't a monster - no more than any other parent. Just because some of us are further down the line it doesn't make us experts but, as you've seen we are happy to share the experiences we've had - both good and bad - and hope that something is of some use to you, and to let you know you aren't on your own. I send hugs and positive vibes for both you and the wee chap.

Rod in Japan wrote:I think the short answer to that is that they learn by being smacked that they've caused offense and aren't going to get away with it, and then either figure out why on the spot, or later when they're better intellectually equipped to do so. Personally, I'd prefer that my son knows early on what causes other people offense, than that he find out from somebody who isn't prepared to explain it to him for ten minutes, or however long it takes (I wonder if people who are brought up by totally gentle, rational parents get a nasty shock when they leave that happy bubble...?).

Now that my son understands reasoning, I reason with him.

I think we may be a cross purposes here - I was referring to occasions when my son was old enough to understand - from about 3 - but that's him and not anyone elses child. I'm in no way trying to say anyone elses method of child rearing is wrong - it's horses for courses and I'm certainly no expert and my kids are far from being perfect angels! It just happens that this method works for me and mine and it's what we feel comfortable with. I'm also trying to prepare them for what happens when they leave the happy bubble - although I do have to say that the nasty experiences they've had with the real world so far have (sadly) shown them, in no uncertain terms, what it can offer. As to totally gentle, rational parent - far from it! I guess you just didn't see the temper tantrum I threw in the street when he did!

Both my sister and I were horrible children, and I was smacked as a child. However, it had to be something horrifically bad to earn a smack. Punishments were generally of the no treats/early to bed type.

The few occasions I can remember being smacked were:

I told my mum that I hoped she'd die for being horrible to me (and I was old enough to know exactly how much that hurt her)
The first (and last) time I told her to F**k Off
Deliberately injuring my sister (injuries include knocking her front teeth out, breaking her arm, cutting her head open)

(See, I told you we were horrible)

I seem to remember my sister got smacked for very similar things.

I think the world of my mum, and can't believe how I used to behave. I would smack a child (even in this day and age) but it would have to be something really bad.

I resort to a smack very rarely - it's usually in the situation where absolutely nothing else has worked, such as his enormous meltdown. Had he not 'gone deadweight' in the middle of a very busy road, I doubt he would have been smacked, but his actions were potentially dangerous and the smack was to propel him into moving as much as anything else; as some of the numpty drivers around here would not have thought twice of just driving off regardless of whether anyone was still on the crossing.

The problem I think with children under the age of three (approximately) is their understanding of timescales. Telling him 'If you come nicely you can have some chocolate as a reward when we get home' doesn't work, because waiting until he gets home is not as appealing as doing what he wants there and then, IYSWIM. Similarly with threats - 'wait until we get home, I'm going to take X toy from you as punishment', or waiting until we've got home 'I'm doing this because you were naughty 10 minutes ago' doesn't have any real effect on him, because he's probably forgotten what it was he had done that was naughty in the first place.

His immediate removal from toddler group worked effectively, because punishment was metered as an immediate consequence of bad behaviour; as does our usual method of the 'naughty corner' and being ignored when we're in the house....it's just when we're out and about that things get more difficult. No problems today, I can happily report, as I took the buggy with me. He started wanting his own way, he got three warnings and after the third, he got wrestled into the buggy - nice walk over, get pushed home like a baby, then. Trouble is, his time with the buggy is limited as I will need it for the baby when the weather or situation isn't suitable for me to use the baby sling, so I'm really looking for a different approach.

I'm very much looking forward to him understanding that bad actions DO have consequences that may not be immediate, IYSWIM.

Graye wrote: Children actually thrive on having boundaries that they know and understand. I suspect fairness doesn't really come into this, they know how far they can go and the consequences if they overstep the line, whether the consequences involves a light smack, taking away treats or some other form of punishment. I think every parent should be allowed to deal with their child's behaviour as they see fit. However I love the slow build up approach to the controlled smacking. Did the "dread factor" actually work? Also, I suspect I see more boys than girls being particularly difficult as toddlers. Is this likely?

Well E has never been smacked and I plan never to smack - I was 'smacked' as a child, My brother, sisters and Mum all smacked me, we also had cruel and unusual punishments for things. We (me and my closest brother) had 4 teenagers and and adult looking after us, the boundaries were all over the flippin' joint. I forgive my sisters and brother, but my mum was supposed to be an adult.

Before E was born JohnM and I discussed discipline at length, we have chats every now and then about discipline - her grandparents are less strict, but that's what grandparents are for.

From 9 months (or so) E had time out, the last time she had time out was a few months ago.

First she gets a kindly warning "come on darling don't throw your toys, now say sorry" (for which she is always praised)
second warning is a stern "Mummy said no!" (this is followed by silence)
lastly I tell her it is time for time out,and I always explain why. Time out is her sitting on my lap faced away from me with me restricting her movement, not holding her, just stopping her from throwing herself around - she gets 1 minute for every year of her life. I would be willing to do this anywhere. If we are in company I'll take her to a quite corner. You need to be consistant.

The biggest problem that I have is other people not knowing what I am doing and chatting to her or me during the 2 minutes.


We will have to alter this as she grows older but we find that it comes round every few months, it lasts a few days and she calms down again.

Kids want to push the boundaries, they want to know what they are in charge of. I think being a toddler is the worse time because they think 'well I can walk, talk, feed myself... I am the boss now' and they just need to be reminded that you are the boss.

I also think that as emotional, physically exhausted and sleep deprived parents we all need to remember that it is us that sets the limits.