Gay Marriage

[demi]

well thats me told then

and for the record, this is me playing nicely.

[demi]

well thats me told then

and for the record, this is me playing nicely.

Well then, play nicer!

i will try, honsetly

[gregorach]

Yes indeed, the basic premice of "faith" we can leave to one side, as like you say it's both personal, and also just as impossible to disprove as prove, if you are of the mind to.

I was going to respond quite extensively to this, including referencing serious philosophers and theologians, but I don't think I'm going to bother now... ([Cough] parsimony [cough] Russell's teapot [cough] Kierkegaard [cough] Sartre.) Excuse me, I seem to have something stuck in my throat.

You are right in that to put this as a fundamental aspect of religion and ignore the "dogma" is cherry picking in the extreme, but thats not to say that these rules perhaps were part of society before our current version of religion.

And it wouldn't matter in the least if they were, or not. Keep the good stuff because it's good, not because it's old, or written in some holy book. If you think you need a holy book to tell you what's good, Socrates would like a word with you... And when people come up with new good stuff (such as "Actually, gay people aren't a threat or a problem, let's treat them just like everybody else") then consider it solely on its own merits.

Once you really strip all the dogma out of religion, what you're left with is indistinguishable from secular humanism.

[Green Aura]

I think I've told this tale before but in light of my advancing years you'll have to indulge me.

Many years ago I worked on a brand new ward specialising in Dementia. All new staff, one of whom was a born again Baptist. One day she collared me in the break room - "I've heard you're a Marxist, why do you work with these people." I didn't fully understand the question and still don't, taking Duncs point that I don't do "good things" because a god told me to. I asked her why she was there and she said the church had told her she must do good works and this job had come up. She hated the job though so couldn't understand why anyone would work there without being ordered to. Needless to say she didn't work there for much longer, she went off to work with troubled kids (whatever that meant). I'm guessing she didn't stay there very long either as she didn't strike me as a particularly caring person.

[oldjerry]

Once you really strip all the dogma out of religion, what you're left with is indistinguishable from secular humanism.

I agree with all you've said Dunc,it's just thatfor some of us,the recent fashion for aggressive atheism is becoming indistinguishable from mainstream Evangelical Christian practice.

[sleepyowl]

This took a course I wasn't expecting

[demi]

Once you really strip all the dogma out of religion, what you're left with is indistinguishable from secular humanism.

I agree with all you've said Dunc,it's just thatfor some of us,the recent fashion for aggressive atheism is becoming indistinguishable from mainstream Evangelical Christian practice.

maybe thats due to people fighting for the truth.

it is shocking that these out of date religious teachings can affect so many modern day issues. like birth control, abortion, stem cell research , gay marrige ect. the sooner we do away with these irrational beliefes and steam ahead without religious interfearance into the 21st centuary the better.

[gregorach]

Once you really strip all the dogma out of religion, what you're left with is indistinguishable from secular humanism.

I agree with all you've said Dunc,it's just thatfor some of us,the recent fashion for aggressive atheism is becoming indistinguishable from mainstream Evangelical Christian practice.

"Aggressive" atheism, eh? You getting atheists banging on your door on a Sunday morning or something? I think you might mean "atheists who don't shut up and go away just because someone says they should"... We have as much right to participate openly in civic life, to state our beliefs and to expect them to be respected, as anybody else. Let me know when you've got some atheist in a funny hat telling you that you can't get married because he doesn't like your choice of partner, and that in fact to allow it would cause the end of civilisation as we know it, and I'll take your complaint a little more seriously.

[sleepyowl]

I think prostletising what ever your faith is is bad for the soul & yes I mean metaphorically speaking, I would hang my head in shame if I saw Pagan do that or an Atheist come to think of it, as the old saying goes a good pub needs no advertising.

Anyway this post was about having your say in English & Welsh politics not arguing over religion

[gregorach]

I think prostletising what ever your faith is is bad for the soul & yes I mean metaphorically speaking, I would hang my head in shame if I saw Pagan do that or an Atheist come to think of it, as the old saying goes a good pub needs no advertising.

That's fair enough, but a lot of people seem to feel that our very existence is an affront to them. I'm certainly not proselytising, but I'm not going to hide either.

Anyway this post was about having your say in English & Welsh politics not arguing over religion

It was kind of inevitable, given that the only objections to gay marriage are religious. It is a religious argument, and there's no getting away from it.

[sleepyowl]

You'd be surprised, not all opposition to gay marriage is religious, some gay people are 'why should we conform to what heterosexuals do?' Plus there is the whole thing of you can have open relationship in a civil partnership & it isn't considered adultery.

[gregorach]

You'd be surprised, not all opposition to gay marriage is religious, some gay people are 'why should we conform to what heterosexuals do?' Plus there is the whole thing of you can have open relationship in a civil partnership & it isn't considered adultery.

OK, all opposition that actually gets any traction... I mean, I think I've followed the matter pretty closely and I've yet to see either of those points even obliquely alluded to in any media coverage.

[boboff]

It's a shame Dunc's not more religous, he could pass for a later day masia with that beard and long hair!

When I said you can't argue with faith, well of course you can, but I can't, especially against people who care about this so much, what ever there point of view is.

I don't know what a humanist thing is, but suspect that you are right, as most of what you say I agree with.

The point really is I don't care about any term of reference beit religous or secular or other science or theory which I am too idle to read and learn about, even though I know I should.

My life is about family and friends, health, happiness and well being, in my world the semantics of religon or science or theory I am gloriously ignorant of.

I like the idea of paganism as well, but again it's not something I feel inclined to delve into further. It's the motivation to take a position that I suppose I am lacking, but I do admire the motivation in you other "believers" As I said you all have a faith in something, which is great and to be respected.

I feel out of my depth when answering Dunc now..... I'll shut up.

[gregorach]

It's a shame Dunc's not more religous, he could pass for a later day masia with that beard and long hair!

Actually, the photo's a bit out of date... My beard is now trimmed short and kept neat, and my hair barely makes it past my collar these days.

My life is about family and friends, health, happiness and well being

That's a pretty good definition of humanism really. Some other definitions here: http://www.humanism.org.uk/humanism

[sleepyowl]

OK, all opposition that actually gets any traction... I mean, I think I've followed the matter pretty closely and I've yet to see either of those points even obliquely alluded to in any media coverage.

That's generally because those things aren't generally considered 'news worthy opinions' as it is not an organised group, but I have come across it. Perhaps you need to hang out in gay bars more if the cheesy shite music that they generally play doesn't drive you completely insane & make you want to gouge your ears out with a rusty teaspoon