why pay to flush it away ??

[brett53]

right kiddies , having been woken up by the local fuzz helicopter buzzing around - I thought i would make a start on this - it may end up in a few bits so please excuse this and the fact its 2.30 am here .

OK so loo flushing using rain water - DA basics .

why ?? - well that's obvious - you are using fresh potable water to flush the thing , and if you assume that you use 10 litres per flush ( we will be using this as an illustration throughout - so bare with me ) - and you use the loo say 3 times a day that's 30 litres per person per day ( well take in to account hand washing as well and that's probably not far off )

so that's 210 Lt's per week - 840 Lt per month - 10, 080 Lt's per year ( approx ) or in M3 - 10.8 cubic meters - or in English 2376 gallons - which you are paying the water company for AND this all adds to your sewerage charges especially if on a meter - as the crafty blighters charge sewage at 90% of what water you use - sooooooooo - the more water you use ( trough the meter ) ,the more sewerage charges you incur

thus it definitely pays to use rain water to flush your loo

now first things first - the practicalities .

a how much rain do you get ?? - obviously this is a non starter if you live in the kalahari desert ( home of those annoying insurance selling meerkats ) or the arctic - as you wont have the wet stuff , or at least not in liquid form

next , how much collection area do you have? - eg: roofs - the more the better - or if you don't have a lot - but do have garden area available - how about a large tarpaulin on a roller arrangement that you can pull out as a collector when it rains ?? and put away when its dry - tarps can make very effective collectors
you need to look at ALL roofs - not just the main one - garages , sheds ,in fact ANY flat sloping surface will add to your haul - the problem of course is then how to get the water from them to your storage tank/s

and this is where you will hit your first problem , where to site the tanks ?? and more to the point what to USE as tanks ??

so lets start as simply as possible - for those not blessed with super bodging skills , a rain water butt , and a rain diverter ( available cheaply in a lot of hardware stores these days ) - you simply cut a convenient down pipe - and insert this in line - there is a spigot to feed a pipe to your water butt , or of course you can feed the down pipe straight in - so you have your water - but how do you get it to the loo ??

there are two ways - gravity - and pumps , if you CAN get your tank above the level of your loo cistern then you are laughing - but bare in mind that if you start putting tanks on roofs or in them , that water weighs approximately 10 lb per gallon - and you don't want the tank descending on your head - so you MUST make sure that if you are raising ANY tank above ground level - that what is supporting it will support it ( and then some )

but for now we will assume you have your rain butt sat on Terra fir ma - chances are you WILL have to employ some form of pump arrangement - and the associated plumbing - NOW the "experts" will tell you that you need a "professional" to do all this - well plumbing ain't rocket science these days folks and i would strongly suggest that the BEST route to go is the push fit PLASTIC plumbing system - copper is fine but expensive and fiddly - and whilst compression joints are good - i would caution AGAINST sweated solder ones as this IS a pro job and also have seen quite a few fires started by amateur plumbers - its the blowlamps you know

AND another point is aesthetics , whilst I live alone and basically don't worry too much about looks of things - the average wife ,partner ., significant other will probably object strongly to pipework running up their nicely decorated walls - AND one has to think about HOW you are going to get the water to where you want it - if the loo is upstairs , this makes things a LOT more difficult as you are going to have to run pipes trough floors or walls

so to conclude this first section - i strongly suggest to you to sit down ( with a stiff drink or cuppa ) and THINK about the following

1. do we get enough rain to justify the effort ??

2. have we got enough roof area to collect the required water ??

3 where can we put tanks to store it all ?? - will we be able to support them safely ??

4 . assuming above all YES , how are we going to route the pipe work required ??

5 . are we going to use "direct " feed or via a header tank ?? ( i use direct as it saves a whole lot of problems) -BUT word of caution here - there are such things as water regs - and you need to check on these BEFORE starting work as the water companies get a tad tetchy if you pollute "their ' supply with rain water , so you may need to contact them to see what their rules are locally - as apparently in some places - the harvesting of rain water is actually not allowed ( some states in the US for instance so i read ) ** actually I keep as far away from them as possible - what they don't know - they don't grieve about , depends of course how you feel about regulations

just remember "rules are for the adherence of fools and the guidance of wise men " -although throughout I do NOT condone the flaunting of said regulations !! ( what I do is up to me )

any ways its now 3 .22 am - the fuzz have concluded their business overhead and I am back off to my bed

more of this to come - feel free to pitch in with any comments - BUT PLEASE lets not get into any "professional /expert disputes here as to the right or wrong way of doing this , we are talking more Wallis and grommet than professional systems here - if you want those - then there's plenty of advice ( and experts ) out there on the net who will take something relatively simple - and complicate it

part the second - to follow

[Julysea]

I look forward to the second part. Our only household toilet is downstairs, on an outside wall, with plenty of roof, and plenty of rain.

[lazyspice]

We went for the low tech option - don't pull the plug after a bath and fill a bucket to flush the loo with it. Works for us

[Odsox]

BUT word of caution here - there are such things as water regs - and you need to check on these BEFORE starting work as the water companies get a tad tetchy if you pollute "their ' supply with rain water , so you may need to contact them to see what their rules are locally - as apparently in some places - the harvesting of rain water is actually not allowed

I'm pretty sure I remember that when we had the drought in '65 and they brought in the "hose pipe ban" for the first time, that the water companies insisted that ALL water (including falling rain) belonged to them. That was in response to people using hose pipes connected to water butts.
I remember that because, a) I was a tad incensed that the British Government had the right to do that, and b) I was just hoping that someone with a flooded house would ring there local water company telling them to "get their damned water out of my cellar".

[brett53]

BUT word of caution here - there are such things as water regs - and you need to check on these BEFORE starting work as the water companies get a tad tetchy if you pollute "their ' supply with rain water , so you may need to contact them to see what their rules are locally - as apparently in some places - the harvesting of rain water is actually not allowed

I'm pretty sure I remember that when we had the drought in '65 and they brought in the "hose pipe ban" for the first time, that the water companies insisted that ALL water (including falling rain) belonged to them. That was in response to people using hose pipes connected to water butts.
I remember that because, a) I was a tad incensed that the British Government had the right to do that, and b) I was just hoping that someone with a flooded house would ring there local water company telling them to "get their damned water out of my cellar".

aye good point that - they would probably claim it was not theirs then - or it was beyond their control - seems that water co's have it all ways - water belongs to every one - NOT just a few big concerns and shareholders

[brett53]

PART OF THE DUCKS

Right then having decided you want to do this , the first thing to lay hold of is something to store the stuff in - at the moment i use a motley collection of water butts - 2 outside - and 3 in a small outbuilding connected to the house - see photo else where ( pay attention here ) on the forums - what I want is an IBC ( intermediate bulk container ) of 1000 lts - these are used to store liquid food stuff and are forklift transportable - as they usually have a cage round them - but can be got for about 50 quid in good condition .

i would say that 2 of these are about minimum for a family ,dependent on water use etc - but several butts or drums will do just as well - and you MAY even be able to scrounge up something suitable gratis

next the vexed question of pumps - personally i don't like the idea of anything over 12 volts near my system - as a: it is safer ( no 110 0r 230 volts near water )
b: it gives you the option to have as i do batteries charged by solar panels - ,the little pump i am going to recommend draws Micky mouse amps and WILL push water to the first floor level quite happily - its worth investing in a 4 quid non return valve also , so your pipes don't drain back .

see here : http://www.whalepumps.com/caravan_RV/pr ... st/16/134/

these are available from most camping /RV/ mobile home type outlets - there's a shop in Plymouth that sells them http://www.caracamp.co.uk/index.html AND a whole load of other interesting stuff useful to the self sufficientish person - actually an aladdin's cave for the bodger

they also do "in line " versions so if you had to pump a bit further up hill - stick one of these in and away you go - they work - and seem pretty reliable + very quiet in operation too - the one shown is the "deluxe" version - but they do a basic one and it works just as well

don't forget it will only be working for a short time - there is NO need for fancy control systems - just a big switch near the loo marked on and off - OK you will have to refill the cistern after each flush ( about a Minuit or so ) - but if you have THAT hectic a lifestyle that that's too long or you cant be "arsed " ( excuse the pun ) - then you really are in the wrong place here

of course if you have an inventive bent you can have float switches etc to control header tanks etc - but WHY complicate matters ?? KISS !!

now plumbing . well obviously i can NOT tell you how to do this - as each installation will be different - it IS just common sense really - all you need is pump in water butt - pipe from this to the start of your pipe run ( not forgetting a non return valve - then to your cistern - now this is where you need to take care - the SIMPLE solution is just to use an open end inserted into the side of your cistern BELOW the level of the float valve - you WILL need to be able to shut off your mains supply and a single wheel or gate valve fitted somewhere handy will do this + allow you to turn on the mains again during dry spells

and THIS folks is where you can get into all sorts of grief from your friendly water company - as they usually insist in minimum distances etc - air joints and other unnecessary things ( imo ) if you have an inlet below the float valve - a: it will use less water ,and b as the water rises - it will close the existing float valve - thus NOT allowing any back flow into the mains plumbing ( don't forget you have a positive stop with the mains OFF valve ) - but THIS apparently is not good enough for some water companies - oh no - so do have a look at what they require IF they put out the info on line - but whatever you do DON'T GO RINGING THEM as they will probably send a man round wanting to inspect things , and if too many of us do this - they will outlaw it or start charging us - ignorance is bliss - and works BOTH ways - again i am not condoning anything illegal - just use your common dog with this

you WILL of course using this simple solution actually have to stand and run the pump till the water level is sufficient - fortunately my loo has an internal overflow system , so its just a case of waiting till that flows and job done - you may though have to fit a level indicator of some sort

OK - so in part the third - i will discuss powering your system

[Millymollymandy]

Veey interesting (the bits I understand anyway ) but my immediate concern would be the water freezing if the butts/IBCs etc were stored outside. You would need to be able to switch back to mains water when the weather is very cold.

[theabsinthefairy]

Good informative post brett, thank you.

We have a rainwater flushing system, with drainpipe collecting from the barn and house roof, and 3x 500 litre water butts interconnected in the barn on the first floor and a bathroom on the ground floor, so it was just a question of punching through a 3 foot thick stone wall to run the pipes in- but as we had to that with the ceiling beams in order to create the bathroom ceiling the pipes went in alongside the beams.

We find that copper pipes work best - because - we are in a mountainous region and prone to freezing temperatures that don't go above -6c for weeks on end, and overnight temps that reach -16c regularly, and there is NOTHING you can do to prevent pipes from freezing, but at least you can heat up the copper pipe.

The butts are interconnected with some plastic tubing through what should be the tap holes, obviously water is self leveling across the three butts, and the final feeder butt has a fine mesh over the 'exit' to prevent debris heading down the copper pipe to the cistern. We are very lucky that gravity does our flushing for us.

I throw in a bleach concentrate into the furthest away tub once a fortnight to ensure that the water does not green up or smell, but having a septic tank I don't use much bleach, or other chemical products.

I keep the tanks from freezing by stacking my straw and hay bales around them in the barn, but we have frozen and then we use a mains fed back up - a tap controls the source of water for the cistern.

In the summer we dont have enough water from rain to run the system, so tend to either top up the tanks from the well, or use the grey water from the bath.

We are on a water meter and have no sewerage /waste water charges to pay, so obviously this system has financial benefits for us, apart from the 'green' feeling, but I don't see that you would get any financial benefit unless you were on a meter, as your sewerage rates are incorporated into your flat water charge otherwise.

[brett53]

Veey interesting (the bits I understand anyway ) but my immediate concern would be the water freezing if the butts/IBCs etc were stored outside. You would need to be able to switch back to mains water when the weather is very cold.

quite so - as i found out to my cost this year - more work required this summer whilst the system is dry ( probably ???? ) - some insulation is a good idea round the tanks - and i thought we where going to have "mediterranean " climate down here according to the CC/GW experts - well i wish it would hurry up then

[grahamhobbs]

Ever thought of a compost toilet, saving all for the garden and not using any water.

Incidentally modern toilets use 6 litres per big flush these days, not 10.

[brett53]

Ever thought of a compost toilet, saving all for the garden and not using any water.

Incidentally modern toilets use 6 litres per big flush these days, not 10.

no garden here - just a small yard - and as a i said - using a rule of thumb figure of 10 Lt's - makes the math easy for the purpose of illustration - but good point so work on that figure per flush then folks + add washing your handies and 8 -10 will be not too far off or allow for the "difficult " flush occasionally - it all sort a evens out

[indy]

I'm really tight fisted, I save the bath water and bucket it down the loo