very stubborn toddler

[crowsashes]

im at a complete loss as to what to do with my little one.

hes nearly 3 and just wont listen so much so , if he doesnt get his own way he will lie on the floor and refuse to move. its not with everything, just when we are out walking. if e dont go the route he wants to he acts up , throws his silent tantrum on the floor and then screams like mad if you stick him in his pushchair.

now ive tried everything i can think of,
distraction - this works for a while then he figures out where we are and wants to go a specific way, usually the opposite direction we need to go.

ive tried giving him a choice, walk this way or go in the pushchair that doesnt work and i still get the tantrums!!

being nearly 3 he needs to be walking but im reluctant to let him sit in his pushchair all the time.

the other thing is , he hates shopping, we talking as soon as you approach a shop door he screams, puts his feet on teh pushchair wheels, rocks back and forth in his pushchair till it tips over and this is for every shop ( except the green grocers funnily enough) ive dragged toys out, tried sticking him in the trolley, tried walking and he still hates shopping and theres no way i can get out of not taking him. after all we need the basics!!

argghhh its so frustrating and i have no help.

[JulieSherris]

Hmmm.... why don't you try the shopping list trick?
Tell him before you go that you need his help with the shopping - obviously he can't read just yet (can he? ) but draw the items out for him that you need to get. Make sure that each shop you need to visit has something in which HE is responsible for & also let him know in advance that he will earn a 'treat' (of your choice) if he does a good job.

Try drawing little maps of the way you have to walk & leave the pushchair at home, if you don't have the pushchair, then he can't use that as a tool to get his own way!
If you draw little landmarks on the map, see if he can find the next landmark..... I used to draw maps for Leah with arrows & taught her left & right, so she could tell me when to turn & was very important!!
Also, YOU set the route & stop giving him choices, it's YOU who are the parent & not him, so he can help, but he can't decide, ok?

When he tantrums, ignore him - oh, a LOT easier said than done, I know - but if you have to hold him at all, don't make eye contact, don't talk to him until he's calmed down & just wait - if you in a shop when he starts, just tell a shop assistant that you are leaving your basket/trolley & won't be a minute, then take him outside until he stops - again, don't talk to him, just wait. He'll soon see that he doesn't get attention when he behaves like this, but he gets your full attention when he's nice.

My middle girl was bad for a while when little - any attention was good attention to her, so I ignored her when she was naughty & it didn't take long for her to figure things out - ok, she didn't like it, but hey ho!!

[sortanormalish]

I had one that did the same thing. It was a little eerie reading your post. He would throw his head back and scream the shrillest noise you have ever heard, throw himself from side to side untill the stroller tipped over if I didn't catch it, bite, pull his brothers' hair, and throw things. He looked demon possessed. One day at the pharmacy picking up medication he tipped the stroller over, hit his head and we had to go to the ER.

Then one day I was about to pull my hair out trying to be the perfect-gentle-never-raise-your-voice-and-certainly-never-your-hand-mommy and this little old lady came over to me and said, "Spankings never need to hurt a child, just get his attention. Older ones should get them in public, the humiliation works better than anything else you can do." Words of gold!!! Nothing else had worked especially not ignoring him (stitches in his brother's arm from biting).

4 swats later, no tears, just one very startled child and months of screaming whimpered to a halt. I whimpered because of the guilt. He looked at me like I was an alien.

I had this idea that he would think I didn't love him or he would hate me, but before we were even out of the store he was laughing and talking like nothing had ever happened. He never even complained about going out again.

The older two are very competitive teenage boys. I took that kind old woman's words and ran with them. When they start cat fighting while we're out, I ask very loudly, "Do either of you boys need any new panties? Still plenty of room in the crotch?" I've only had to say that once in the last year.

[crowsashes]

thanks for the replies, ill give them ago see what works.

i do ignore his tantrums, i usually wait till he calms realises im not doing anything to him contact etc but its constant. there seems to be no let up with it.


i tried the shopping list thing before. but he HATES shopping. we can be in the city centre and he is perfect right up until we go through the shop doors. he throws a tantrum from the second we go in to a shop right up to the point we leave. the only option i have is to not go shopping but home delivery is not an option, the £4 charge might not seem like much but on such a tight budget its money i cant afford to spend.

i would have thought by now. he would realise its only once a week ( for the essentials) and the every other day trips to get milk.

[sortanormalish]

crowsashes, I was a VERY young mother back then and didn't really understand the boundaries thing. He is still a boundary pusher. I hate spanking, but if timeout doesn't work, you can't reason with them, or they are endangering their lives (running out in the street in front of cars and then telling me he forgot for the hundreth time, yup, same kid 2 years later), it helps set the message in their heads. I know for a fact my husband has always hit harder when they're all wrestling around and laughing. But guess which one of us gets the water works.
I think too, it is so hard to discipline in public. No matter what you do there is always someone that thinks you're too lenient and someone else that wants to report you to the authorities. And it seems like no one actually thinks you're doing ok.

[citizentwiglet]

Sweetheart, you have my sympathies. My eldest was exactly the same, now his little brother - at 18 months - is trying exactly the same thing on. Yes, it IS a boundary thing. Apparently, this happens particularly with boys more than girls - I can't remember where I heard it, but apparently young boys get sudden surges of testosterone which make them want independence, and to - essentially - 'fight' you. They are trying to grow up, to find out where they fit into the adult world (think of cubs playing at catching prey), but these urges are more advanced than their actual mental capabilities for reasoning, so you get strops, tantrums, violence, aggressive behaviour. They are looking for a reaction, a way of learning what is OK, and what isn't.

I'm not a great fan of Super Nanny, I must admit. Whilst she seems like a lovely woman, and an excellent nanny, one thing she is not is a parent. I think the whole thing gets so much more confusing, upsetting and frightening when you have a maternal or paternal bond with this shrieking banshee who is a billion miles away from the sweet little darling you brought home from hospital; and feelings of guilt and remorse for punishing a child - as a parent, my god, I sometimes wish you got a straitjacket in your Bounty pack.

I used a combination of approaches, really. First the 'trying to make something interesting', through bribery (yes, I know, I know!), to stern words, to ignoring, to then grabbing him by the wrist and dragging him kicking and screaming to where I needed him to be. And yes, I have smacked his bum a couple of times. It has been very effective, but I think its effectiveness comes from the fact that is an exceptionally rare occurence, and when he HAS had a smack, he has realised that what he had done was very, very, very bad indeed.

Fortunately, as they get older, they are more quickly engaged in something, so shopping CAN become more fun. A trip to the post office can become a hunt for insects at the roadside. When a sulk / strop / tantrum is about to ensue, just looking up and going 'Oh wow, look at that!' will stop a strop dead in its tracks, because they are so inquisitive they'll forget about their tantrum and be more interested in what they can't see.....

Another thing that worked well for me was the 'advance warning', so he would know in advance if, say, we would be leaving the park. I'd say 'OK, 5 more goes on the slide, then we go.....etc etc until OK, this IS your last go on the slide, then we leave'.

I also found that giving him 'freedom' helped. It's that testosterone thing again, he wanted to be the little big man, the mini Alpha male; so just letting him outside in the back garden to play (obviously it was safe), or letting him play upstairs in his room without supervision, or wander off (within reason and, again, only where there was no threat of deep ditches, water etc) on country lanes - it was just enough slack to let him fulfill those desires to be his own person, and he seemed much calmer for it.

He's 4 now, and we still get the odd tantrum, of course we do; but this 'little big man' act has developed so beautifully - he is my protector, now - 'It's OK, Mammy, I'll look after you', 'Don't be scared Mammy, I'm here!'; and he is my helper - he is so keen to help out. He unloads the washing machine, gets things out of the fridge for me, sets the table, makes his bed, bless him. Again, he feels 'grown up' doing these big boy things.

Don't worry too much, this IS very much a phase. Show me a mother whose child has never had their horrid moments, and I'll show you a liar. Or at least someone with a very bad memory.

Remind me of this post when I am tearing my hair out over his brother, won't you? An 18 month ball of horror at the moment. Wants all the same freedoms, but also wants to do everything his 4 year old brother does. And my GOD does he let you know about it when he's not happy!

Happy days, eh?

[fran]

I have one who also hates shopping. If I insist that he comes, he walks behind me with a real hang-dog expression. He shows off in shops especially clothes shops. He spends all his time asking if it is time to go home yet. And the worse thing, he stands and taps his foot and tuts if he thinks I am taking too long. I would try some of the tactics above but he is 59 years old, help!!!!!!!
Sorry crowsashes, I don't mean to be flippant, I know it is difficult but just bear in mind they grow out of these stages quite quickly. Good luck.

[crowsashes]

the last time i let the little one have freedom ( playing in his room or outside)

he threw rocks at the window ( stone obsession thanks to macca pacca)
and turned his room into a snow globe, seriously do not let kids have bean slabs this one had two covers and i stitched the zip shut myself and somehow he opened it and two weeks later im still finding the bloody polystyrene balls everywhere!

thankfully i had an old duvet and pillows so that stuffing has now been stuffed in to the 'bean slab' which is a little more toddler proof. and makes a better seat than the original beans did !

been having some success. hes been happily playing with play doh today, getting the box out himself, putting the tools and a pot of the stuff on the high chair then climbing into it usually he has tantrums etc when i make him play in his chair with stuff like this. today he did it all by himself.