Bio-Diesel

[PlayingWithFire]

The bio-power.co.uk link is down.

I think of all the serious criminals out there - filling up with vegetable oil - and Gordon (or his replacement) wringing his hands over lost revenue.

Tax pollution Gordon, not innovation!!!

But that would be anti-capitalist and then we would be fcuked, cos no one really wants that just now. May come a time when the planet forces it upon us.

Minimise, reuse, repair, recycle ... but keep spending and buying stuff ...

[gug]

sorry, was a type... try
http://www.bio-power.co.uk

(for some reason there was an ) at the end of the url)

[rhyddid]

[Andy Hamilton]

I think Guerilla Gardening would make a good article.

Get the old Quill out Mr Hamilton.

I think we need to get out there and start planting first. Get out them seeds.

[Wombat]

Does that mean that you only plant bamboo and other things that guerillas like to eat?

Nev

[Muddypause]

There is certainly an anomaly about how they apply the tax breaks on biodiesel compared to LPG. On LPG we pay about 5 or 6 pence per litre duty, compared to about 45-50 pence on a litre of petrol. I think I'm right in saying that biodiesel gets a 20 pence discount. The low rate on LPG is because it is intended to make a significant contribution to our commitment to reducing CO emissions, and this is an incentive for people to convert.

This has resulted in a viable and growing infrastructure of LPG producers, suppliers, converters, and factory-supplied dual fuel vehicles, and a thriving network of users and information.

Biodiesel users, on the other hand, seem forced into a position of criminality. It is illegal to use a car on the road that has not had duty paid on the fuel; yet there seems no real procedure to collect this tax. If any infrastructure is going to grow around biodiesel, this needs to be addressed in some way, and I would suggest it is really only going to take off with any credibility if the duty rate is comparable to LPG.

Anyway, I think my car (converted to LPG) is good for a few years yet (it's 18 this year, and shows no sign of crumbling away yet), but when the inevitable comes I may pursue the biodiesel route.

[Shirley]

dragging this one up again - someone posted on the green board asking which fuel was the best for the environment. Like me, she lives in Scotland and thus living without a car is unlikely as everywhere is a long trip - 24 miles round trip to get to nursery for example.

someone then posted this link about how bio-diesel is not such a great idea as we simply haven't got enough land to grow the plants to produce the oil.... http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2004/11 ... not-people

It's an interesting article. Does anyone have any comments?? Is bio-diesel unsustainable long term?? Just had another thought - how many chemicals are used to actually grow the crop?

[Muddypause]

I think that must be right, Shirlz. I've seen those sort of calculations before - we only have a fraction of the land needed to produce bio-fuel if we plan to go on using fuel at out current rate.

The article by George Monbiot is pretty hard nosed about it - if we turn over masses of the world's surface to growing crops for fuel it will be an ecological disaster. But I'm not sure that is any less preferable to the ecological disaster we will face if we keep on burning fossil fuels.

One way or another, we are simple going to have to find a way of consuming less. Much less. I guess eventually it will come down to economics - fuel oil of any sort will just be too expensive to use as we do now.

Amusing to see Monbiot's biog: "He came back to work in Britain after being pronounced clinically dead in Lodwar General Hospital".

[Shirley]

I know that some people use recycled cooking oil - but still I guess that this can't provide all the necessary amount - but surely if it's cut with the ordinary diesel then it should be a help??

www.longma.co.uk were at presteigne in Wales when we went for an eco weekend and he seemed pretty sure of making a difference using recycled veg oil - it uses a two tank system so you can still use diesel or you can use as a blend with mineral diesel without any fuel system modifications.

I think you are right - it's all down to working out which journeys are necessary and planning ahead to save driving when you don't need to - the car sharing ideas are a great idea!!

great blog hey!!

[ecoandrew]

Well I guess I can jump in here. First post for me so obviously new to the forum.
I have been running 100% biodiesel (B100) in my 82 mercedes wagon for nearly a year, and 8000 miles. I know and have talked to many people running biodiesel and straight veggie oil.
Here is the basic info.
Here is the definition of biodiesel, this comes from the National Biodiesel board and is the accepted definition in the biodiesel community.
Biodieselâ€â€

[ecoandrew]

Andy Hamilton ask me this in the newbie section. "Do you think that the whole infrastructure needs to be changed before there is a significant switch over to a more sustainable fuel?"
I thought I would respond here so all the info is in one place.

Not a whole lot a infrastructre has to change in my opinion.
Biodiesel can be transported just like petroeum diesel can. In fact it is much safer. The flash point of BD is somewhere in the range of 120C. It also degrades much quicker than it's petroleum counterpart. So in tha case of a spill it's not as much of a problem. Storage is much safer as well.

BD processing plant do have to be built. So there is some intrastructure that would have to change. It can be pumped just like regular diesel.

The US is using millions of gallons of biodiesl a year. And Europe is way ahead of the US in BD use.

One thing I would like to add.
Biodiesel is not the ultimate solution to the petroluem problem. It does have it's down sides. The production of biodiesel stilll uses petroleum in the way of farm equipment and the methanol used to make it. Fertilizers used to grow source crops can be made from petroleum as well. And you are adding water to the resource use. I will be the first one to tell you that it is better than the other options. But we have to get people to quit using so much fuel and natural resources.

[Muddypause]

Hello Andrew. That's very interesting info. I run my car on LPG, which is a cleaner option to petrol, and here in the UK we get a pretty good tax incentive to do that (it's about 40 pence per litre cheaper that petrol at the moment - effectively half price).

The tax break that bio-dieselers get is far less (I think about 22 ppl), and apparently there is a big dispute with the tax authorities about what actually constitutes 'bio-diesel'; the taxman says that it specifically has to have been through the process of trans-esterification before it qualifies as a bio-diesel, which results in the extraordinary conclusion that pure veg-oil is not a bio-fuel in the eyes of the taxman. This means it doesn't get any tax break. All this has resulted in no real development of an infrastructure of converters and suppliers, which at least LPG has, in a modest way.

The common perception amongst us LPGers in Europe is that America doesn't have much need, financially, to consider alternative fuels. LPG seems to be rare there. What were your motivations to use bio-diesel?

we have to get people to quit using so much fuel and natural resources

Agree with you wholeheartedly. I think, unfortunately, we are set to see some serious skirmishes over the world's dwindling oil supplies - the thought that there will be equal trouble over the growing of cash-crops in a monocultured third world, where whole countries are given over to satisfying the west's thirst for fuel is nothing short of terrifying.

Here's another link to add http://www.biofuel-uk.net/

[ecoandrew]

Muddypause, I have never heard of LPG, what is it?

My motivations for using biodiesel were mostly environmental ones. When I started looking into BD I was driving 160km a day for work. So I thought the idea of using a cleaner buring fuel that came from within the US was a better option. Support local farmers rather than the big oil compaines.

You are probably right financially the US doesn't need to look into alternative fuels, but I think with the war in Iraq, and China becoming another global supercountry, the US is starting to look into other options. BD is definetly becoming more popular. I see and hear it on the news more and more.

At this point the companies the sell and blend the biodiesel get tax breaks, which essentially bring the price of biodiesel and biodiesel blend down to the price of dino diesel. As far as I know the users aren't getting and tax breaks just the satisfaction of knowing they are using a better fuel.

[Muddypause]

LPG = Liquid Petroleum Gas. Basically it's propane, though it may have a bit of butane in it too, depending on local temperature (butane won't vaporise below around 0°C, so it's not used in cold climates). It's still a fossil fuel, but it produces less carbon and hydrocarbons than petrol, particularly if the car pre-dates the use of catalytic converters, like mine does. You can read a bit about my conversion here.

[ecoandrew]

I have heard of people using propane here. Not too many though. The big alternative fuels here are natrual gas, propane, ethanol, biodiesel, electric, and hybrids, not in any particular order. I don't know which is used the most.