ARRRGH Children please please give me advice!

[fifi folle]

I've been watching this thread with interest. We don't yet have children but I work in childcare, have done my qualifications, and grew up with an older brother with ADHD. I totally understand your frustration, you try everything and nothing seems to work.

I would agree with Crowsashes on consequences and on reward charts. In your case I would think perhaps very short term targets with tangible, small rewards regularly, maybe things like a trip to a cool park with good climbing frames or soft play centre (not sure if you have them where you are).

I would also maybe look closely at the ingredients of food and drinks, sometimes there can be additives in even things like bread which can set off negative behaviour.

Positive reinforcement can be useful. Another theory is ignoring low level negative behaviour and only addressing the "big" stuff. What are the main things that are driving you batty?

Do you have a health visitor or such like? Could you speak to your doctor?

Sometimes the best thing to do is put the child somewhere safe, and then walk away for a couple of minutes to calm down!!! (Not so easy when you have 30 children all wanting your attention though!)

[Rosendula]

I am reading your posts Jessiebean, I just can't understand how children can get hold of power tools. I understand that even less now since you have said there were two adults there to stop them.

What I DO understand is what you are saying about the children being able to unfasten catches on safety gates. Of course, the simple answer is to put the locks out of reach, but that does depend on how high the gate is and whether the children can get something to stand on. My son could undo anything like that, and we found putting a lock on the other side of the gate did the trick. We could reach to lean over and unlock it, but he couldn't lean over. If you don't think that would work, I would highly recommend a Lindam Flexiguard Travel Safety Gate. I have one of these myself which I have started using again since my daughter started charging around the house at full speed while I was cooking. I don't know if you have them in Tasmania, so I found one on ebay to show you what I mean http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Lindam-Flexiguard ... 3cb32ea3e3. It looks flimsy in the picture, but the frames are actually really strong. They adjust to fit any doorway, and if you fit them tight they do not move at all. To release it, you have to press a button and pull up a handle on the top at the same time, and it's really quite stiff. There is no way a little boy could do it.

[Jessiebean]

Thanks for your replies Crowsashes, I am sorry you have the same frustrations we do- unfortunately for us poor Aussies having an upstairs and downstairs is a great luxury- we have a pair of tiny cottages on the one level and the walls between several living spaces have been knocked through so we can't keep them out of the kitchen or living room, they have even taught themselves to open the locks on the front or back doors. I used rewards charts on and off for about a year but after about four weeks they seemed to lose their power and spark tantrums instead.... I have just received some stickers on a pracel from my inlaws- I will give them a go and see if they spark interest (they are puffy!)

[Jessiebean]

Hi Rosie, unfotunately they are swift and adept climbers and go straight over any safety gate without hesitation or losing momentum, they can even open childproof pool fences(they use them at daycare centres here). I am sorry you can't appreciate the position we are in but let me assure you that had you the opportunity to look after our boys in "one of their moods" you would soon discover that unless you are physically holding them, supervision doesn't stop their behaviour as they will run away and by the time you have caught up to them they are doing something dangerous and/or destructive.

They eat a good diet of mostly homemade foods(except for what they receive at daycare which meets strict guidlines) they are rarely fed colours or artifical flavours...

[Milims]

It seems to me that this is becomeing a little heated. So how about we take a moment and just breath.
Ok.
All of us who have children love them unconditionaly and with a passion. None of us would willingly do them harm. I'd say that we all realise that every child is an entirely different person in their own right. It seems to me that any adult, who takes on the responsibility of bringing a child into this world, takes on the responsibility not only for its wellbeing, but also for teaching it how to behave in a safe and socially acceptable manner. This teaching can take many forms and we all use methods based on those applied to us as children, that come from advice from others and from instinct.
Jessiebean, you asked us for advice on what could be classed as a very concencious subject. Please understand that we have responded to your request with honesty and compassion and I'm sure that no mailce was intended at all.
As I've said, we all love our kids, but not evey discipline method is acceptable to everyone. I have had social services suggest to me that I don't love my children because of a misunderstood discipline method - which oddly enough ended up being the very method used in a TV series less than a year later! Go figure!
I guess the crux of the matter is that our children need to grow up safely and that means applying barriers. Sometimes that means physical barriers such as stair gates or cupbaoard locks. Sometimes that means conscience barriers - the mummy stare or voice etc. And sometimes pain barriers - a slap on the wrist or a hunger pain because they refuesd to eat the proper dinner you gave them. None of which really do any lasting harm, but rather give them an insight into the real, grown up life that they are heading towards. I'm sure that all of us would rather that our children learned life lessons early enough to keep them out of real trouble.
Now then! May I offer an obervation? Something that I have encountered that seems to cause a real problem is the"who's the boss" issue. I've done it myself and observed it with close friends. How often do we allow our kids to do something because at that moment we can't be bothered with it? I know I've done it often - but it sets a seed of dominance. Think about it, if we allow a child to answer the phone, that we pay the bill for, or answer the door to the door that we pay the rent/mortgage for, not only are we putting them in danger but we are also allowing them a dominance in the home that they are not equiped to deal with. Had anyone else thought of that or am I being totaly a paranoid and overbearing mother? However I have seen my friend have real problems with her son because she will sit back and yell once he has done something rather than stepping up and stopping him do it. As a result there is a constant dominance battle in her household. Her son is 12 and an unhappy boy.
I guess what I'm trying to get at is, it's really important to give our kids practice at real grown up life, within the confines of their age and experience.
So Jessienbean, on a practiality, it seems that your wee man was working with the ingredients of breakfast - so how about you leave cereal in his personal bowl with a wee jug of milk for him to pour on. Then lock everything else away. That way he fulfills his need to make his own breakfast within the boundaries that you have set. Score on both sides!
May I say at this point that I have teenogres who are far from perfect - but they still respond to the Mummy stare!
Sorry - that was a long one!

[Jessiebean]

THanks Milims, I do think we have a Who's the Boss issue here, we will see what we can do!

[Milims]

THanks Milims, I do think we have a Who's the Boss issue here, we will see what we can do!

Practice the Mummy stare - it's really scary! Even works on grown men!

[Jessiebean]

THanks Milims, I do think we have a Who's the Boss issue here, we will see what we can do!

Practice the Mummy stare - it's really scary! Even works on grown men!

I will do so- I will practice on my husband when he comes up with crazy schemes like "We should investigate alternative power at home-I think I have figured out how to make a small scale nuclear reactor- I just need to figure out the modulator" it is possible the boys are a very very over exhuberant version of their daddy (with heaps of toddler behaviour slathered on top)....

[TheGoodEarth]

I am absolutely amazed how many ishers think it is acceptable to inflict violence upon their defenceless children to teach them right from wrong. If children grow up with violence, then they are more likely to dish it out to their own children - not good!!!

[Jessiebean]

It amazes me that people are prepared to judge others on their actions without offering a practcal alternative- in what way is that helpful? Furthermore I take it you have never had extremly dexterous, strong, difficult, headstrong children to deal with. you will note that no-one has said it is their first line of discipline- it is the last when all else has failed- would you rather the children are living in a home which they are making unsafe for themselves, where mum and dad are so stressed and sleep deprived that they are barely fit to look after the children? Trotting out tht old mantra about people who spank their children making them into abusive adults ignores all the underdisciplined children who are running riot and have no undertsanding of consequences and conveniently ignores the fact that a smack for a child who is putting themselves or someone else in danger or is severely compromising someone else is worlds apart from someone who is beating their children due to their own issues..
Any way..
Milims (and others) I forgot to mention the day of the eggs incident was one of the many days I had put out a biscuit tin with weet bix spread with tahini and honey in it as they do like to serve themselves breakfast (most of it ends up on the floor normally) it was this weet-bix that had the milk poured all over it on the table... (I can almost deal with that) they love their breakfast in a tin but it doesn't stop them from getting into everything else as well!

[Millymollymandy]

Yes we've all turned into serial killers because we were smacked when we were little.

Edit: Oops Jessiebean posing at the same time, this is in answer to the post above!

[Jessiebean]

Yes we've all turned into serial killers because we were smacked when we were little.

I sure know some who look like they could be very nasty pieces of work and their parents were very into the understanding psychological sort of parenting which is good for some kids, unfortunately what these girls are up to would make your hair curl lots of emotional manipulation and lying to the extreme (pretending they are being attacked and screaming for the police when their dad is picking them up to take them home) so I guess it is NOT one size fits all with parental approaches.
MMM are you trying to tell us something?

[oldjerry]

If must be possible for anyone to set boundaries,through penalties and rewards,RIGIDLY applied,without resorting to violence.My kids were (one still is) constantly testing the boundaries,but like the others(11 and 6) he is learning that when mum and the old bloke are happy with his behaviour,life is loads of fun,and when he does something unacceptable it aint.It's all increasingly difficult with the pressures people are under to keep a roof over your head etc. It's just too easy to resort to smacking,and if they dont respond favourably what then?..slap harder?..more often?
I've come across as judgemental (which for anyone who knows me would be hilarious) but that's not intentional,but violence towards children must be wrong,''It never did me any harm''..... well if it meant you're prepared to do it yourself, it did.
Would you hit your children if they were big enough to hit you back?

[Jessiebean]

and yet... no tangible alternatives offered, it has been explaine dover and over agian to my eldest child that we all have a horrible time when he does the wrong thing, that no-one has fun when he makes work for us and although he is not constantly behaving terribly when he does so he will do it whether or not we are there and whether or not we have set boundaries rigidly or not so where the solution to avoid all smacking whilst retaining a semblence of liveability in the house? I don't like smacking, I don't think it is par for the course but the children don't respond to the other techniques I have been offered and take the opportunities provided to laugh at us and do what they want!

[Rosendula]

It amazes me that people are prepared to judge others on their actions without offering a practcal alternative-

Jessiebean, you asked for help, we offered it. TheGoodEarth, Oldjerry, myself and others posted advice and encouragement on page 1, before this turned into a debate about hitting children. The fact that you chose to ignore or reject our help does not mean it ceases to exist. What I find disheartening is the complete lack of gratitude you have shown. OK, maybe some, maybe all of the advice was unsuitable, but we tried to help and I would appreciate it if you would stop saying we didn't. If your kids are as bad as you say, perhaps you need to get proper, practical help from professionals in your area.