petrol prices etc

[Big Al]

I won't be amongst the least happy to see a €10+ litre - it is about time people appreciated this one-off legacy of fossil fuels.

And you are not a dependant car user due to the likes of disabillity etc. If you think that we will be returning to a local economy then you truly are strange.

[oldjerry]

You're in dreamland,get real.
Some people live in the country. 1.There is NO public transport.
2.The hill up to here is 1:7 on both sides.
3.My right leg is crippled.

What sort of bike would you recommend?

Maybe I should'nt live here, but my way of life is based on a real book by Rachel Carson,not a derivative coffee table effort from Seymour.

[Marc]

I'm basically in agreement with you greenorelse, I don't think you're strange at all - well, maybe a little but then so am I lol
Lowering the speed limit and seriously reducing the power of cars I would love to see!! Not sure when it'll happen though!
I'd love to turn back the clock in many ways, although I know most or many people would resist that as being a fate worse than death ...
There's no knowing what will happen in the future but I DO think that fuel cost is going to keep rising. I also think there'll be loads of other changes that most people aren't going to like. ie: wages in the UK are going to keep falling in real terms!! - and many people are going to have to get used to working harder for their money.
We've had the easy consumerist times, now it's payback!

[dave45]

You don't tgink the recent price hikes in petrol are anything to do with changes in the amount of recoverable oil do you?
its short-term geo-politics, effectively transferring money from oil consumers to oil producers. cui bono?

[boboff]

I like the Seymour book, and its on my desk not on my coffee table!

I like the pictures!

Self Sufficiencies snobs, well I never did!

Did I mention we have 3 cars? One for trips to school, one for trips to the Supermarket & to work at the Hospital 20 miles away, and one for collecting Horse Shit and Logs.

It will be nice to see Dave needing nursing care and only have "anne" who lives next door covering 2000 beds as no one can afford to get to work, and the country can't afford to pay them enough to get to work. Buses at 6.30 a.m. and 9 p.m. out to Rural Cornwall are somewhat rare, although we do have a bus that goes to Cambourne on a Wednesday.

[gregorach]

You don't tgink the recent price hikes in petrol are anything to do with changes in the amount of recoverable oil do you?
its short-term geo-politics, effectively transferring money from oil consumers to oil producers. cui bono?

There has (AFAIK) never been a case where major political upheaval (of the sort we're seeing all over the Middle East right now) in an oil producing nation has not resulted in a permanent reduction in oil exports. It's not the ultimate recoverable that matters for an importer like us, it's the net export rate. It doesn't really matter how much money you've got in the bank if you can only withdraw it at a certain rate.

As for your remark about "transferring money from oil consumers to oil producers" - what do you expect? There is no law which says they have to sell us as much of their resources as we like, at bargain-basement prices.

If your life is absolutely predicated on the continuing availability of cheap private motor transport, you'd better start thinking seriously about ways to change that. It doesn't matter a toss what any of us wants, we're about to come face-to-face with the hard, non-negotiable limits of the physical world, any crying about it isn't going to change anything.

[greenorelse]

And you are not a dependant car user due to the likes of disabillity etc. If you think that we will be returning to a local economy then you truly are strange.

You're in dreamland,get real.
Some people live in the country. 1.There is NO public transport.
2.The hill up to here is 1:7 on both sides.
3.My right leg is crippled.

What sort of bike would you recommend?

Maybe I should'nt live here, but my way of life is based on a real book by Rachel Carson,not a derivative coffee table effort from Seymour.

gregorach provides the eloquent answer:

If your life is absolutely predicated on the continuing availability of cheap private motor transport, you'd better start thinking seriously about ways to change that. It doesn't matter a toss what any of us wants, we're about to come face-to-face with the hard, non-negotiable limits of the physical world, any crying about it isn't going to change anything.

I'm not unsympathetic to those who find themselves at the mercy of the physical world; I've had my share of setbacks. I also feel sorry for the disabled and the poor who find themselves seemingly trapped by circumstances.

It's also rather churlish to imply that anyone on this board has no sympathy for others - the fact is, no-one likes the truth, especially when it threatens their personal interests - but hey, "get real" guys, read and re-read and memorise what gregorach said and act upon it. It makes a crucial point which few have woken up to.

If such truths raise hackles, does it make them less true? Wouldn't it be more productive for people to be questioning and dealing with their reactions rather than trying to subvert or avoid such truths?

Political will, grossly and glaringly lacking, is going to be needed in huge quantities to help many people to deal with what they lament as insurmountable barriers to where and how they can live, what they can eat and what they can do. Big changes are on the way and it could be the end of the world for some or a daunting challenge for others: which camp would you like to be in?

In all but a minority of cases, it starts with number one.

[greenorelse]

This is worth reading for anyone who 'needs' cheap fossil-fuelled transport.

if one traces a reasonable trajectory from current developments in the Middle East, the handwriting is already on the wall. Since no other area is capable of replacing the Middle East as the world’s premier oil exporter, the oil economy will shrivel — and with it, the global economy as a whole.

[oldjerry]

Well perhaps my cage WAS a bit rattled,but long term wishes dont help people get by in the short term.Without doubt we all need to reduce our dependancy on fossil fuels,and quickly(and people were pointing that out LONG before 1970,hence the Seymour reference-nothing to do with snobbishness,which I can express much more directly),but the SUDDEN rise in the price of fuel and it's knock on inflationary effects, has made life pretty difficult for the low paid/unwaged especially in rural areas and it 's not particularly comforting to know that they shouldn't really be living there anyway.....at least it isn't sub-Saharan Africa,I guess they're wasting their time trying to feed themselves and their kids too...simple economics don'tcha know.
The present price of oil is as much as anything a result of successive govts associating with big oil companies,and as a result,shoring up some of the most corrupt fascists around,and yet the overwhelming response from the mainstream greens has been a nauseating mixture of smugness and schadenfreude.

[gregorach]

Ah, I totally had a reply written and then the board went down...

Shorter me: Don't blame the messenger, blame the people responsible for the last 40+ years of chronic resource mis-allocation and the massive looting of what used to be called "society" by the rich. Unfortunately, we are where we are (i.e. completely f*cked) and we now have to try and deal with it as best we can.

[crowsashes]

Unfortunately, we are where we are (i.e. completely f*cked) and we now have to try and deal with it as best we can.

the worst part of that is there are still many people who honestly believe we arn't. the toughest thing for me is i dont drive.. but if im to work as a freelance photographer/graphic designer/illustrator i need to be able to move about easily... a car is the only option (maybe a moped/bike) until the public transport is dramatically impropved. right now as im setting up i am stuck... with a toddler its even harder.

the one thing i hope improves from this however is that business will remain more local... that i wont have to source work in the other cities ill be fine finding it right here.

[boboff]

Does it matter when someone starts caring about the planet then? If it's later than the 1960's then it's not valid? To make any subsequent effort is to be a simple play thing, something that can be looked upon as pure fleeting entertainment for the illiterate masses.

To take this tact, and the accuse "mainstream greens" of smugness is hypocritical and reflects its own Narcisistic smugness of it's very own, which could also be considered nauseating.

What do we have to take this approach to matters? Attack with phrases like these? Especially when really we are all saying the same thing, but you have a bad leg and live on a hill, so we should do something special for you, the fact you have lived your life in I am assuming a very low impact way, and have probably done more than most in a real rather than virtual sence means to a degree I do agree with you as well.

Can't we just discuss matters in a factual way without the need for derision, condescention and hyperbol?

[gregorach]

Can't we just discuss matters in a factual way without the need for derision, condescention and hyperbol?

Not on the internet, apparently...

[oldjerry]

What could be more condescending than suggesting to people who are struggling to make ends meet that their way of life is completely un tenable and so it's all in a good cause?

[MKG]

Unfortunately, we are where we are (i.e. completely f*cked)...

... the worst part of that is there are still many people who honestly believe we arn't.

Well, I'm one who firmly believes we aren't. I'm gloomy and pessimistic, certainly, but only because we are coming, with apparent nonchalance, to the end of an age (i.e. the oil age). I despise the "get it while it's going" attitude of 20th century politicians who, to be perfectly frank, put us all in this situation (aided, of course, by a population insisting upon complete denial). But there are signs of changing attitudes.

No, we're not completely f*** by a disappearing oil supply. We're going to enter a difficult phase, certainly, but I truly believe we'll get past that. Watch out for the renaissance of nuclear power. We'll survive and we will, as a species, look back on the history of oil and chuckle away merrily.

(Then the rising sea level will do for us all, but that's way beyond the end of oil).

Mike the optimistic pessimist.