Selfsufficientish.com

We are challenged, morally, to change our behaviour, as individuals, but the bigger challenge is for our leaders to come up with a proper coordinated survival plan. They'll need our backing.

The difficulty here is that a plan can only work internationally really, it is the world we are talking about after all, and that requires our leaders, if you can call them that, working together on this issue all over the world, and at present as the problems get tougher with over population and climate problems, drought and so forth, the opposite seems to be happening, people seem to be closing the gates and battening down so to speak, and when people do that they become selfish, become more right wing in their approach, hence isolating even more, nationalism is on the rise , that is a problem for a world that needs the opposite. And that leads to the next part which is how can they ever get our backing, if we dont agree with our leaders methods or direction??? So we can only change ourselves as individuals or we will use the fact that as a world we are not really suceeding in this,so why bother at all.
so i will try to make changes as an individual, on the grouns of there being a small chance of success, that is our nature as human beings to hang on to the smallest chance. And that is what i shall be doing, its almost as if you can take for granted whatever our leaders do will be the wrong thing anyway.

resurrecting thread, sorry, but I felt this urgent need to have a say, too.

Martin - I agree totally with your rant.

A few weeks ago I came across a website with an eco-quiz on it - test to see how badly you did in your daily lifestyle. OK, so I thought I had lots of bad things in my life, but some good things, too - I don't have a car, rarely use public transport, and walk everywhere; I don't fly; I am highly energy conscious in my home - use a clothesline instead of a drier, occasionally heat a single room I am in but not always (thick jumpers and woolly socks work well); I grow much of my own food and what I can't grow I buy from local sources. I did the quiz and apparently I am a carbon guzzler who needs six planets to support herself. OK, so I do use electricity and have running water and I was prepared to accept the sad judgment.

So then I had a couple of friends who drive everywhere, don't grow their own food or eat organically/locally, take 3-4 holidays a year via aircraft etc, have a mass heated house and so on and so forth take the quiz - and guess what, they only need 1.4 planets to sustain their lifestyle!

I swear I need to buy a 4WD and jet off to Bali every third weekend.

That quiz was probably aimed at "ordinary" people - cars etc being the norm. You just fell off their horizon altogether, so they couldn't classify you and made you look the worst they could...

I've sometimes looked at a quiz in the past and thought - but none of that applies to me, I can't really answer any of those questions truthfully, not with the choice of answers given! It's the fault of the "quizmaster" if the quiz is not inclusive.

A lot of quizzes seem biased towards veganism as well. I accept that certain kinds of agriculture are very bad for the planet and that we are too reliant on cheap animal protein, but a quiz I took didn't take into consideration that there's a difference between eating intensively farmed meat twice a day and, as I do, eating local, extensively-reared meat a few times a week, and so it branded me a planet-scorching energy guzzler!

Yeah they are mostly oversimplifications of complex behaviours and issues. Waste of time and effort!

Nev

hamster wrote:A lot of quizzes seem biased towards veganism as well. I accept that certain kinds of agriculture are very bad for the planet and that we are too reliant on cheap animal protein, but a quiz I took didn't take into consideration that there's a difference between eating intensively farmed meat twice a day and, as I do, eating local, extensively-reared meat a few times a week, and so it branded me a planet-scorching energy guzzler!

I think most of us can agree that intensive meat production is not very efficient use of good land. Where I think animals will always play a part is in areas where land isn't much good for anything else. Sheep may have been a plague in Scotland but in some areas they are the only way of using the land productively.
There is a human tendency to see every issue through our own very narrow world view and I think this affects some of the debate around agriculture and meat production.

revdode wrote: I think most of us can agree that intensive meat production is not very efficient use of good land. Where I think animals will always play a part is in areas where land isn't much good for anything else. Sheep may have been a plague in Scotland but in some areas they are the only way of using the land productively.
There is a human tendency to see every issue through our own very narrow world view and I think this affects some of the debate around agriculture and meat production.

IIRC that was the stance taken by the late, great John Seymour, and it certainly makes sense to me!

Nev

I am doing my best not to fly. I do actually love flying as a way to travel but am fully aware of the damage that it does. I got back yesterday after an extended weekend trip to Berlin. Me and a friend got the train, we met up with my girlfriend and another couple who flew and a German friend who got a car share from Frankfurt.

It was an amazing 5 days and by getting the train a lot of the stress was taken away. The cost was a little more than flying but not much more. Anyway the extra cost can be absorbed by trawling the internet for cheaper accommodation.

2 of the three people who flew said that they would've got the train if they could get an extra day off work. This is where business or government legislation could help. By offering longer holidays for people who traveled by train instead of a plane. I know it has its flaws (what about people who can't afford to travel at all, or simply want to stay in the UK - or not go on holiday). But it would be an incentive, it is far better to give incentives than to penalise.

As for meat production I have stated to only buy game, the way that I see it is that the meat is fully free range and ethically killed by a single shot. Also it is locally produced and the methane from the animals is not as great as from a great hurd of cattle.

Milk products is probably my biggest guilty pleasure, difficult to give up cheese. Although I am starting to get a liking for sheeps and goats cheese - which I assume are environmentally better.

Andy Hamilton wrote:2 of the three people who flew said that they would've got the train if they could get an extra day off work. This is where business or government legislation could help. By offering longer holidays for people who traveled by train instead of a plane.

Sorry to argue on this one but as a manager I really don't agree. Most people get at least 4 weeks holiday in this country. And they really couldn't spare one extra day???

Don't believe that the government would pay for it. They don't even pay for the full amount of statutory sick pay or maternity/paternity pay. We still have to pay a proportion.

If staff have time off then someone else has to do the work. That's either their colleagues have to do extra work to cover or a, very expensive, temp. If someone goes off on maternity or sick leave, it's really expensive for the business to cover. And that cost has to be passed on to the customer.

Andy Hamilton wrote:As for meat production I have stated to only buy game, the way that I see it is that the meat is fully free range and ethically killed by a single shot. Also it is locally produced and the methane from the animals is not as great as from a great hurd of cattle.

Milk products is probably my biggest guilty pleasure, difficult to give up cheese. Although I am starting to get a liking for sheeps and goats cheese - which I assume are environmentally better.

I'm sorry but you're going to have to explain to this Towny why sheep's milk is better for the environment than cows'. And why don't you think that cows are free range when sheep are? I know a couple of dairy farmers and their cows have plenty of space to roam around. They've stopped using any nasty hormones and stuff in their feed even though they aren't classed as organic.

Personally I don't think that shooting an animal to kill it is any better than stunning it first. If it isn't a perfect shot then the animal could be wounded and in great pain.

Cheers
Zoe

It is the methane produced from keeping cattle that is the problem. Methane being a worse greenhouse gas than carbon. Also it is down to the space that is used to keep them, often trees are cut down to make room for them.

I could not see the government paying for that either, just a suggestion. You are right about the expensive temp or other work colleagues covering. - But if there is to be change in people lifestyles then there surely has to be some kind of incentives in place? - Tax breaks for overland travel might be a better option.

An animal could be wounded by shooting you are right but, in order get a license to shoot animals you have to prove that you can kill them in one shot.

Andy, I have to disillusion you in regard to game... Our deer generally have to go to an abbatoir. When they started deer farming here, they built a slaughter facility and all, with the aim to do just what you think is happening - shoot the deer on farm and process them New regulations came in very shortly after the facility was built, and it's been standing unnused ever since. Yes, some deer still get shot and killed, but the majority have the same fate as sheep and cattle.

And all ruminants produce gases - cows produce more, because they are the largest of them. But then, they produce most milk, too (and meat). Intensive goat or sheep management for milk production is no worse or better than intensive cow management.

As to incentives to travel overland - I think the first step to be taken is taxing fuel for airplanes; in other words, taken the tax incentives for travelling by air away! I've been to and from Germany by coach several times. To Scotland that's a 24 hour trip; still, I didn't find it terribly exhausting. I assume that service is still available - it's been 5 years or so since I last used it. A lot of British soldier families used it, and the kids seemed to cope really well with it. It certainly was cheaper than flying. You also only had to change bus once - at the ferry - so it was quite convenient.

As to incentives to travel overland - I think the first step to be taken is taxing fuel for airplanes; in other words, taken the tax incentives for travelling by air away! I've been to and from Germany by coach several times. To Scotland that's a 24 hour trip; still, I didn't find it terribly exhausting. I assume that service is still available - it's been 5 years or so since I last used it. A lot of British soldier families used it, and the kids seemed to cope really well with it. It certainly was cheaper than flying. You also only had to change bus once - at the ferry - so it was quite convenient.

Funny you should mention the coach I just looked into it and it takes 20 hours and 40 mins from Bristol. with one change at London.

The train took about 9! The difference in price is a bit though, its £110 from London to Berlin return on the coach and we paid £110 return from London to (Koln) Cologne then a further 170 euros return (about £120) for the high speed train from Cologne to Berlin.

Although you can get a group saver ticket where five people travel at the weekend on local services (for one day) for 33 euros. It means that the 4 hour trip from Koln to Berlin takes 9 hours and you have to change 6 times. - but if you want to do it on the cheap then there you are.

You also have to consider that the Eurostar has some offers. - but indeed if the fuel tax on trains and coaches was lifted Europe wide then we could all benefit. Coupled by realistically taxing air travel could be a good move.

Andy, I have to disillusion you in regard to game... Our deer generally have to go to an abbatoir. When they started deer farming here, they built a slaughter facility and all, with the aim to do just what you think is happening - shoot the deer on farm and process them New regulations came in very shortly after the facility was built, and it's been standing unnused ever since. Yes, some deer still get shot and killed, but the majority have the same fate as sheep and cattle.

I was wondering about deer, but I never eat it. I should have said game birds - guinea fowl is becoming a favored meat for me.

I guess I did not think it through about sheep and goats. The

Intensive meat production can be gruesomely eco-unfriendly. There is a lot of press in Australia at the moment about the likelihood that irrigation to the Murray Darling basin, which produces about 40% of our food, will need to be shut down because we simply don't have any water left. Lots of hot words being said, and I saw one farmer quoting the stat that it took 55,000 litres of water to make 1 kilo of beef - which is staggering - I am guessing that these beef were grown on irrigated pastures. When I was a wee small girl we grew mutton and beef on what was available in the dams at the time.

Andy - I have to agree with you re train travel. For years I used to travel from the east coast of Australia across the entire continent to the west coast - took 4 days by train and it was the msot romantic experience. People have entirely forgotten the sheer romance of train travel, of being rocked to sleep at night, of waking in the night to the long mournful hoot of the train's horn ... on dear, now I'm getting carried away.

Andy Hamilton wrote:Although you can get a group saver ticket where five people travel at the weekend on local services (for one day) for 33 euros. It means that the 4 hour trip from Koln to Berlin takes 9 hours and you have to change 6 times. - but if you want to do it on the cheap then there you are.

I always hated those cheap weekend savers... Whenever I did have to travel at weekends over shortish distances, the trains were full to bursting, and me, paying full price, couldn't get a seat anywhere! A lot of these weekend travellers were also youngsters who spent the nights on the trains, did a lot of drinking along the way, and had had no opportunity to wash... Not a very pleasant experience. I bet these cheap tickets put a lot of people, who would normally travel by train, off; they either stay home, or take the car. The ones on the train wouldn't have travelled if it wasn't for the cheap tickets, so nothing is gained in the way of saving car miles!

Andy Hamilton wrote:I should have said game birds - guinea fowl is becoming a favored meat for me.

I have no idea how guinea fowl is produced... But the pheasant "production" that goes on around here is not on my list of favourite country pursuits, either! They are raised in cages and then let free, fed by humans, so they get used to their presence and the presence of cars - to be shot by Barbour wearing, 4x4 driving "sports"men and -women, who look down at us, who merely work in the country, with pitying smiles... The best would be if you could keep hens in your backgarden or allotment. Have you asked the council?

Must look into the production of guinea fowl - really should know something about that!

Hi i havnt read all the replies but following on a little from the original post I think personal responsibility plays a massive part. Sadly a lot of folk are too self absorbed to notice whats going on around them and its basically the "wilful ignorance" lifestyle they choose to live by and go about their day to day lives doing nothing to cut their CO2 footprint.

Last year my hubby and I went to the CAT Centre in Mach, Wales for the day following a holiday in St Ives, Cornwall. We were just turning the corner really with trying to "green" our lives a little - up to that point the only thing we did really was recycle our paper, tin, glass and had a few energysaving bulbs on the go.

We walked out of CAT and decided we were going to take responsibility for our own actions and do as much as we could. A quick list of what we are now doing / done (from September last year) in no particular order -

First year at attempting to grow our own veg - a huge thanks for the help and advice given from you guys on SSSish - without which Im not sure anything would be sprouting right now!!
Buy as much local / organic / fairtrade as possible
Use our local farm shop - to which we purchased two push bikes and cycle there each week instead of using our car (7 mile round trip)
compost our waste using an old dustbin
recycle (as well as mentioned above) + plastic, cardboard, tetrapak and we also collect for our immediate family and neighbours = cardboard and plastic is taken to our local recycling centre and the tetrapak we post off
Have switched our electricity supplier to Good Energy
Have switched our gas supplier to Ebico
Have had loft and cavity wall insulation fitted
Have limited our car miles from 12,000 to 8,000 - making us think a hell of a lot more about just when we use the car
Have given up flying (and I love Dubai - spent our honeymoon there 6 years ago and went back for our third anniversary) - will go again but will be by train next time - for a real experience!!
Have just had 1.5 kw solar PV panels fitted on our roof
Have changed all our bulbs throughout the property to energy saving bulbs (including the halogen equivalents)
Have fitted "home made" radiator reflectors
Have turned down our thermostat a lot!! - so we wear more jumpers !!
If its yellow let it mellow, if its brown flush is down approach in our bathroom
Are currently phasing out the use of any products from Unilever and Procter and Gamble
Use environmentally friendly cleaning products throughout the home (Ecover)
Have purchased an Electrosave and done a full energy audit in turn saving 22% of our energy use just by realising what we were using and changing the way we use it , e.g. working out that my hair straighteners only took 30 seconds to warm up and not 3 minutes; putting the required amount of cold water straight back into the kettle after use to take advantage of any residual heat
Have stopped sending "birthday" cards to friends and instead give them something useful - e.g a bag for life - everyone thinks its a great idea
Put a save-a-plug on the fridge and removed the bulb from the fridge!!
My greatest personal achievement so far is convincing the firm I work (solicitors with over 160 workforce) to take on their corporate environmental responsibilities and implement a full recycling programme which came into force about 5 weeks ago

Some may say weve only been able to do certain things because we can afford to but we have a below average income and make best use of what we earn - so if we can do all of the above without too much hassle and feel and see the benefits of doing them, then theres no excuse for any tom dick or harry not doing their bit - even if its only half of the above


Cheers

MEW