ARRRGH Children please please give me advice!

[oldjerry]

Well where would you stop going back? hang them for stealing?
I've been in violent situations,but I wouldn't dream of hitting a child,how weak is that?
Plenty of parents bring up more than one child alone,without assaulting them.
Mine had to be shown the woodstove,cooker,road,sow with litter etc were dangerous it took more time and patience than i've ever had before,but there are loads of sanctions other than violence.
Smacking a child is either a momentary loss of control(ie by the parent) or if calculated ('Go up to your room I'll deal with you later',or'I told you what would happen if you did that') something more sinister.

[Zech]

Obviously I'm speaking from a position of ignorance as I don't have children, but I think that using threats you don't intend to carry out is a dangerous route to take. It just teaches your kids that you don't always mean what you say.

I was smacked occasionally as a child, never in a momentary loss of control, and only as a last resort. Personally I don't think this was abuse - I knew my parents loved me.

I didn't mean to be rude in my last post - sorry if it came across that way. I just get fed up with people who seem to think there's something wrong with for not wanting children. Since none of those people are here, it wasn't really the right place to say so!

[Milims]

I truly believe that smacking does have it's place. For example if a child is about to do something dangerous like poking a finger into a live socket a swift slap on the hand prevents something much more dangerous happening to them whilst at the same time providing negative reinforcement - think pavlovs dogs.
I have smacked my children - but never in anger. My son had a habit of throwing toys over the banister into the hall below - usually narrowly missing whoever was below. I told him that he had 3 chances - but on the third time he did it I would have to smack him to reinforce my point. Sure enough he did it again, missing me by milimeters with a very large fire engine. So I went up stairs, calmly took him to his room and told him to remove his trousers. I then very slowly and deliberately removed my rings ( I wore a lot at the time so it took a while) all the time he was standing there with no pants on. I spoke calmly but firmly and told him to bend himself over my knee. I then told him I would give him 6 smacks and for each one I would give him a reason for it eg You were told that your actions were dangerous and you refused to stop it, you almost hurt me etc. The "smacks" were more noise than substance - a cupped hand on the buttock makes a great sound! The "ceremony" was so scary that the "smacking" seemed worse than it really was - but he didn't do it again and he still remembers it many years later.
I also found that giving them what they wanted with a vengeance really worked! I once bought my daughter a box of chocs and she wanted them imediately so I told her she had to wait until we were at home (ie in about 10 mins) She threw a temper tantrum in the supermarket so I picked her up, took her home and told her to eat her chocolates - all of them. After about 4 chocolates she said she felt sick - so I said - "never mind darling - you wanted the chocolate so just keep on eating" and handed her a dish!
I think that the trick is creativity!

[Rosendula]

supervising them doesn't mean they will be little angels. they still get adventurous/brave/ curious and kids will STILL try and push you.

im on my own raising just one and i NEED eyes everywhere. he cant come in the kitchen ( its not exactly big or safe) so what do you do with them while you cook/load the washing machine etc.

I agree crowsashes, and I wasn't trying to accuse single parents of not doing the best they can - I have a partner who goes out to work, so although I am not a single parent, I am usually the only adult in the house with my daughter. Like you, I HAVE TO make meals or what sort of parent would I be? I HAVE TO do the washing because I'm not willing to let her walk around in dirty clothes. And I HAVE TO go to the toilet. During these times, LO is of course not being watched, but my one good ear is wide open, every chance I get I am checking on her, and if I can't see or hear her I shout through to ask if she's OK and she answers. But in my book, there is a difference between this kind neccessary half-supervision, and being asleep in bed.

As for the smacking debate, it will always be a hot topic, but there is a difference between a quick tap on the back of the hand to prevent toddlers burning themselves and threatening to beat them with a stick as Jessiebean did. Of that, I do not approve. If that makes me bad, so be it.

[crowsashes]

im 26 and had the most god awful alcoholic step father and i can tell you after several beatings including a broken nose inflicted by him, slapping my son on his hand or bum for doing something stupid 'hand in the fire, running into the road' is a far cry from the abuse i received.

abuse would be to let him continue to put his life in danger while i sit back and tell him off and him not listening. i agree there are people in the world who use it as a reason to hit a child. there are times when its not acceptable but sometimes its needed.

my little one has a habit of doing silent tantrums that involve turning himself into a dead weight and lying on the floor, no kicking or screaming just laying there, usually in the middle of a road. the reason - we arnt going the way HE wants to go - i have tried to calmly coerce him the right way, be strict " right up this way now!' kind of thing but its only when i tell him to get up off his back side or i will smack it, that he moves.

[crowsashes]

But in my book, there is a difference between this kind neccessary half-supervision, and being asleep in bed.

i agree with you on that one but
my little one has escaped in to the back garden at 5am before! i did not hear a thing, honestly! ( backdoor has crappy locks that are easy to open) he managed to open his stair gate AND the back door. i guess he had only been out there 10 minutes when i woke up! it is very hard with kids who are smarter than we think! i used to have a sliding chain on his door - as it was the only way to keep him safe but even that cause a torrent of abuse from family who eventually saw why i had it there! every door here has a lock on it because he is so damn destructive

[Rosendula]

i agree with you on that one but
my little one has escaped in to the back garden at 5am before! i did not hear a thing, honestly! ( backdoor has crappy locks that are easy to open) he managed to open his stair gate AND the back door. i guess he had only been out there 10 minutes when i woke up! it is very hard with kids who are smarter than we think! i used to have a sliding chain on his door - as it was the only way to keep him safe but even that cause a torrent of abuse from family who eventually saw why i had it there! every door here has a lock on it because he is so damn destructive

We do our best, and no-one gets everything right first time. I am certainly far from perfect and I could tell you things that have happened that have scared the living daylights out of me that could have been prevented with a bit of foresight. But we learn from our mistakes and hopefully use the experience to prevent reoccurences in the future. I see nothing wrong with having locks on every door when you're bringing up a little Houdini.

[crowsashes]

hes more than houdini - he first 'escaped' from his bouncy chair thing at 6mths.... it went down hill from there..... i am currently debating the 'ethics' of making him a velcro suit - with a matching wall that i can stick him too something a bit like this

[Rosendula]

so long as it's a home-made velcro suit I don't think any Ishers would question it

[Jessiebean]

It was wooden spoon time. Not yet used (I seriously hope we never have to) but brandishing it threateningly got through a little better. Our little men know the flat side of my hand if they ignore me when I try to get them to stop near a road or deliberately ignore me when I tell them to stop when they are doing something dangerous. I

Perhaps instead of behaving so violently towards your children, perhaps instead of threatening them with weapons, you might like to try supervising them. As their role model, what behaviour do you want them to grow up thinking is normal?

If anyone has any suggestions that will work I am perfectly prepared to take them on board-if fact that is exactly what I want, but I have to tell you that everything I have tried just shows my children that we can be pushed, our belongings destroyed and that there are no real consequences (just like the justice system) I am NOT beating my children but I have to say if a stranger threatened my family or to destroy my belongings in front of me I wouldn't hesitate to intervene physically and I believe that is reasonable.
By the way. my Children are supervised but we need to be able to turn our backs for a few minutes, like to get a hot pot off the stove without them coming up behind me and leaping on my back or attacking the car or throwing the power tools next to me in a puddle whilst plugged in. We behave responsibly and have explained down on their level about the consequences of what happens if they do dangerous things, we have used reward charts, thinking time, letting them do what they will and supervising them all the time but the behaviour doesn't change. IDON"T want them thinking that it is OK to behave as they do, I have met far to many children who have been under disciplined and they are destructive, rude, inconsiderate, selfish. Obviously some children don't need heavy discipline but mine don't fall into that category.
PLEASE it should be obvious that I have reached the end of our options at this point and all you can do is attack my methods and throw around vague notions like being "a good role model" without providing any helpful advice at all!!!!! ALL very well to be on your high horse but how about some helpful advice. Attacking me doesn't assist in any way whatsoever!

[Jessiebean]

If I hit a stranger in a pub is that OK? I hope my kids know their place, as part a dysfunctional and chaotic(but hopefully loving) family,I don't assault women ,and I don't assault children.
I had plenty of that when i was at school(till dad found out),the sad men who did it would be at least 90 by now,I just hope they didn't make it.

If a stranger in a pub is physically attacking you, destroying your property and abusing your family and you use appropriate force to restrain is ok-I never said that I was beating my children- read the posts people I am at my wits ends here!

[Jessiebean]

If I hit a stranger in a pub is that OK? I hope my kids know their place, as part a dysfunctional and chaotic(but hopefully loving) family,I don't assault women ,and I don't assault children.
I had plenty of that when i was at school(till dad found out),the sad men who did it would be at least 90 by now,I just hope they didn't make it.

If a stranger in a pub is physically attacking you, destroying your property and abusing your family and you use appropriate force to restrain is ok-I never said that I was beating my children- read the posts people I am at my wits ends here!
My children are is a very loving family and they are supervised and we are good role models, we have read and applied many of the gentle parenting techniques but the behaviour is in no way altered and in absolutely appalling and completely intolerable- throw me a bone here!

[Rosendula]

It was wooden spoon time. Not yet used (I seriously hope we never have to) but brandishing it threateningly got through a little better. Our little men know the flat side of my hand if they ignore me when I try to get them to stop near a road or deliberately ignore me when I tell them to stop when they are doing something dangerous. I

Perhaps instead of behaving so violently towards your children, perhaps instead of threatening them with weapons, you might like to try supervising them. As their role model, what behaviour do you want them to grow up thinking is normal?

If anyone has any suggestions that will work I am perfectly prepared to take them on board-if fact that is exactly what I want, but I have to tell you that everything I have tried just shows my children that we can be pushed, our belongings destroyed and that there are no real consequences (just like the justice system) I am NOT beating my children but I have to say if a stranger threatened my family or to destroy my belongings in front of me I wouldn't hesitate to intervene physically and I believe that is reasonable.
By the way. my Children are supervised but we need to be able to turn our backs for a few minutes, like to get a hot pot off the stove without them coming up behind me and leaping on my back or attacking the car or throwing the power tools next to me in a puddle whilst plugged in. We behave responsibly and have explained down on their level about the consequences of what happens if they do dangerous things, we have used reward charts, thinking time, letting them do what they will and supervising them all the time but the behaviour doesn't change. IDON"T want them thinking that it is OK to behave as they do, I have met far to many children who have been under disciplined and they are destructive, rude, inconsiderate, selfish. Obviously some children don't need heavy discipline but mine don't fall into that category.
PLEASE it should be obvious that I have reached the end of our options at this point and all you can do is attack my methods and throw around vague notions like being "a good role model" without providing any helpful advice at all!!!!! ALL very well to be on your high horse but how about some helpful advice. Attacking me doesn't assist in any way whatsoever!

But you hadn't turned your back for a few minutes. You were asleep in bed.
If you look back a few posts you will see that I have already talked about turning your back for a few minutes - it isn't the same as being asleep in bed.

Also, if you refer back to the first page you will see that we have tried to offer advice, yet you appear to have either not read it, or rejected it and gone at your children 'brandishing' a wooden spoon. Perhaps the advice on the first page wasn't right for your situation. So let's have another try.

we need to be able to turn our backs for a few minutes, like to get a hot pot off the stove without them coming up behind me and leaping on my back

How about getting a safety gate to put up in the kitchen doorway? That way you can see what they are doing in the next room without them being able to leap on your back while you are getting a pot off the stove.

or attacking the car

if you can't be outside with them, can you keep them in until you are all ready to go outside?

or throwing the power tools next to me in a puddle whilst plugged in. We behave responsibly...

What on earth are you doing letting young children get hold of power tools? Power tools that are plugged in??? In what way is that behaving responsibly? KEEP DANGEROUS ITEMS OUT OF THE WAY at least until your children are old enough to understand when you explain why they shouldn't touch them!!

[Jessiebean]

um Rosie- you don't sem to be reading my posts, my children climb everything and can remove safety gates, they can defeat any latch we have put on, they move the furniture- we are NOT letting the children have power tools for goodness sake, they are swiftly leaving the yard where I am surpervising them and taking them from where they are next to my husband who has put it down briefly whilst he is using them- they are not stored so they can be accessed by them! they are attacking the car when I am outside with them and they will not stop unless physically restrained! I am holding their hands when they wriggle out and run cross the road. I do have to sleep you know and the oldest boy needs to go to the loo (they would just throw a potty around- we have seen it) so he needs to be able to get out of the room to do so that is when the egg incident occured.

[crowsashes]

My children are is a very loving family and they are supervised and we are good role models, we have read and applied many of the gentle parenting techniques but the behaviour is in no way altered and in absolutely appalling and completely intolerable- throw me a bone here!

i know exactly what you mean - i have mum + several siblings telling me to use the naughty step - but that only works with sociable children... i put my one on the step it doesnt work to him its like being in his room, somewhere he sits on his own because he wants too!!

so i have a 3 strikes rule - 1 warning ie dont do that 2 telling off and take away toy/film etc whatever hes doing at the time 3 if that doesnt work and he still plays up he gets a smack.

now he knows that if i tell him off the next step is toys taken away after that its a smack. thankfully he usually only gets to the toys taken away step!

i think your first step would be locks on all the doors down stairs - i have that now so the ONLY place LO can get to in the morning is the bottom of the stairs or the bathroom for the loo ( all bathroom related stuff lives in a box on a shelf)

sticker charts DO work - you just have to make a good reason for behaving - have a tv tie every 5 stickers in to being allowed to watch a programme etc
my LO has 4 'tasks' everyday simple things like walk properly to nursery, go to bed nicely, not wet himself and do as he is told, the 'fear' of not getting a sticker means he hasnt had an accident in 4 weeks, goes to bed every night without hassle and gets 2-3 on his chart everyday.

he STILL plays up though but it IS getting better thankfully.

if i could do it without smacking i would but for now its here to stay.