Seats reserved exclusively for men in the House of Lords

[gregorach]

An entirely valid question Jon. Certainly it's hard to see the value if we were to move to an elected second chamber... However, from a purely practical perspective, I suspect that it's a great deal easier to reform it than to get rid of it entirely (where would disgraced former MPs go?), and politics is, after all, the art of the possible.

[demi]

If you make the assumption that religions are innately evil and bad then I can fully understand not wanting it to be involved in politics. However I would argue that religion is innately GOOD, with goodness at it's core, and based on that assumption having religion in politics can be positive.

Some of the views of religion on this forum make me very sad, you must have had bad experiences of religion in the past and I am sorry for this. These comments makes me particularly sad:

I understand that a lot of people still hold on to their religious beliefs due to fear for death, ignorance or just because they don't know any better

Religion, as far as I'm concerned, should not be allowed to rear its ugly head in any walk of life, let alone politics. It's dangerous

I really hope that these views come from misunderstanding and not a desire to be hurtful.

On the point of male bishops in the chamber, again if you assume that religions fight for good then I think it is positive for them to be there, however I am very upset that it was decided that women could not be Bishops and think that that is wrong.

Religion as a whole is full of corruption, lies and greed. You know people here make jokes about the priests having flash cars payed for by the donations from the gullible public. Some people were protesting outside a main church in Skopje singing 'Oh Lord, wont you buy me a Mercedes Benz' because that is exactly what it happening. The priest here are all rich, steeling money from people, old and poor, through donations. You know that little old lady down the road who's husband died and she lives off bread because she can't afford to buy other food, but she still gives money to the church when she goes.
Think of all those churches in america who steel peoples money from them saying 'God told me i should be driving a Porsche!' getting people into a frenzy where they're fainting and dancing about like they're possessed. Charlatans, the lot of them.
All they're after is power and money. Power and control over the people through lies and fear mongering to get them to part with their money. Religion is evil. Religious people are gullible and blinded by faith thats been installed upon them from birth making it somewhat hard to break free from if it's all you've even known. Its brainwashing at it's finest and it's wrong. We don't need any religion to lead good moral honest lives. The world will not fall apart without faith. If we were to live today the way it tells you to in the bible women would still be oppressed, beaten, sold as sex slaves and stoned to death for getting herself gang raped. What is good about that. F*CK ALL THATS WHAT! Be free, think for yourself and don't give your money to these lying bastards!

[oldjerry]

OK,Fair enough Demi,so where do you stand on Quakers?

[The Riff-Raff Element]

OK,Fair enough Demi,so where do you stand on Quakers?

The oats or the pacifists?

The world will not fall apart without faith.

Yes it will. Pretty much every value system is underpinned by some form of faith. In money, in the basic goodness of human nature, in science, in the notion of the sun rising tomorrow. In things you cannot yourself test but that you trust other people can. Faith is more than very important.

[demi]

OK,Fair enough Demi,so where do you stand on Quakers?

The oats or the pacifists?

The world will not fall apart without faith.

Yes it will. Pretty much every value system is underpinned by some form of faith. In money, in the basic goodness of human nature, in science, in the notion of the sun rising tomorrow. In things you cannot yourself test but that you trust other people can. Faith is more than very important.

What utter tosh! We do not need religion to function. In the olden days when every one was killing each other and they didn't understand much about science and how the universe works religion was a way of controlling society, providing a set of rules and law to live by, but nowadays we know there is no bearded man up in the sky who will send us down into the fiery pits of hell to be torchered for eternity for being gay or for being a woman who spoke out against men, or for just not being a sheep and believing in god. We know today that the bible is just a bunch of fairy tales, written and rewritten by various people, edited later on by others and whole pieces discarded because they were written by women, god forbid a woman be allowed to have her say. God does not exist, end of story. We are not idiots anymore and nobody really believes in it any more, even if they identify themselves with being christian or whatever, people know it's ridiculous and cannot be rationalized and today it has become more tradition ( Christmas, Easter ect ) and a way of identifying your ethnicity rather than an actual belief that the bible and god and all that is true.
There are a lot more atheists in the UK than what the latest census shows, people tick the religious box because that's how thay identify their family, not necessarily because they believe in god. Religion is a dying practice and it will become obsolete in the future and society will live on unscathed.

EDIT: Let me just point out, in case you didn't notice, I'm completely atheist as are my parents, most of my family from Scotland, my husband and his dad's side of the family here, and all my friends back in Scotland and some of them in Macedonia. All these people manage to live moral, happy, fulfilled lives and contribute their part to society and function perfectly fine without the need for religion. They did not descend into evil, killing, raping and stealing their neighbours ass just because they are not guided by god.

[Green Aura]

There quite clearly are people who still believe very strongly in a god, demi. At least one of them has tried to make their point on this thread. While I'm am an atheist I strongly believe that others have the right to believe in whatever, from malevolent / beneficent deities to pink fairies.

What I find unconscionable, is this brand of fundamentalist atheism that brand all other beliefs stupid and the people who hold them Idiots. The belief that science holds all the answers is no different to the blind faith of the religious.

[oldjerry]

Or to quote Saint Ian : 'My words but a whisper, Your deafness a SHOUT ' ( Chap.1 Verse 2.........Thick as a Brick )

[demi]

I have no problem with peoples personal belief, it's organised religion that i hate. You can believe whatever you like but i don't want it forced upon me and i don't want bishops in the house of lords having their say and effecting the way society is run. The people who are elected into the house of lords can have whatever personal belief they like, but it should not effect politics. When is does bad things happen, like that woman who died in Ireland after being refused an abortion because it was against the law for religious reasons. It's disgusting and completely unnecessary. Poor woman and her family. And there's also the absolute lies being tought in some schools to our children, actual teachers telling kids science is wrong and instead teaching creationism! Something which seriously infuriates me! Stop brainwashing our kids!!!!!

And i don't think all religious people are stupid. Brainwashed, yes but not necessarily stupid. When you bring up a child to be religious, teaching them from birth, molding their brain to deny logic when it comes to their religion and to not ask questions about it because it says it in the bible so it must be right, it's difficult for that person to then break out of that way of thinking as it's been hammered into their brain right from birth. It is a fact that with level of education, especially education in science, the chances of people still accepting religion drastically decreases. You are hard presses to find scientific professors who are religious. That is because the more educated you are and the more understanding you have of the world around you the less and less plausible religion becomes. And as society, along with science and technology, progresses and the more understanding we have, the more programs they put on TV about how we came to be here and where we are going, the more the general public will be exposed to the knowledge and understanding we hold of the world and the less plausible religion becomes. Although some people are so blinded by their faith they refuse to accept science no matter how much evidence they are presented with. Some people are just a lost cause.

[Green Aura]

The people who are elected into the house of lords

The House of Lords is entirely unelected.

It is a fact that with level of education, especially education in science, the chances of people still accepting religion drastically decreases.

Rowan Williams would probably disagree.

Some people are just a lost cause.

Sounds rather like dismissing people of faith as stupid to me.

[oldjerry]

. It is a fact that with level of education, especially education in science, the chances of people still accepting religion drastically decreases.

I 'm speechless!

You are hard presses to find scientific professors who are religious.

Simply untrue.

That is because the more educated you are and the more understanding you have of the world around you the less and less plausible religion becomes.

A bit more education, and you will certainly begin to question 'scientific objectivity'.




And as society, along with science and technology, progresses and the more understanding we have, the more programs they put on TV about how we came to be here and where we are going, the more the general public will be exposed to the knowledge and understanding we hold of the world and the less plausible religion becomes.

Well if it's on the telly it must be true!


Although some people are so blinded by their faith they refuse to accept science no matter how much evidence they are presented with.

Surely the basis of your revered 'science' is that nobody EVER knows all the answers?


Some people are just a lost cause.

Quite.

[oldjerry]

Sorry we crossed posts,I screwed up all the quotes anyhow!!

[demi]

It is a fact that with level of education, especially education in science, the chances of people still accepting religion drastically decreases.

Rowan Williams would probably disagree.

Some people are just a lost cause.

Sounds rather like dismissing people of faith as stupid to me.

Rowan Williams is the archbishop of Canterbury, of course he'd say that. He has a degree in theology, not in science. Richard Dawkins certainly agrees with me.

People being a lost cause are not necessarily stupid, just severely brainwashed. They can be very informed and knowledgeable on other subjects but blindly deny anything that goes against their faith.


And the politics thing, i don't really know how things work in the house of lords, but i do know that those bishops are there are have their say and influence decisions in parliament and that's not a good thing. They can object to things like gay rights and women's rights ect and all they do is prevent society progressing forward with their judgmental homophobic and
sexist ways of backwards thinking.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

What I find unconscionable, is this brand of fundamentalist atheism that brand all other beliefs stupid and the people who hold them Idiots. The belief that science holds all the answers is no different to the blind faith of the religious.

As you say. In terms of respect and tolerance (something that many of them seem to be so keen to champion), fundamentalist atheists are up there with the with the best of the religious bigots. They see no truth but their own, hear nothing over the thumping of their own tubs.

[demi]

To add for OJ, of course not everything on telly it true but documentaries and pop science are becoming more popular and mainstream, for example the various programs with Brian Cox, star gazing live, wonders of the solar system ect ect. These kinds of programs are becoming more popular and they are a grate way of educating the general public and getting people and kids into science.

[demi]

Why do we have to tippee toe around religion walking on eggshells for fear of offending anyone? I have never singled anyone out calling them stupid. I'v said before it's organized religion i have a problem with, not individual people with their own personal beliefs.