Selfsufficientish.com

Right, I'd like to confess that I drive a 4x4. Having said that, I live in the country and it's v handy when we get flooding (which my old car couldn't handle). Having said that, I'm shocked by how much petrol the damned thing gets through, and as soon as I can get the money together I'm going to go back to a smaller car and diverting to avoid the floods.

(I ended up being almost given this car by my old mum when she changed cars, otherwise I'd still be driving my ratty old rollerskate)

Having driven it for a while I think it probably IS more dangerous, because there isn't the same sense of connection with the driving environment. If I touch the kerb when parking I usually don't even feel it; the car just drive up it. Likewise when I encounter speed bumps or clip the verge (although I try not to). By this line of logic the safest car I've ever driven was my old Mini, where my arse was about three quarters of an inch off the ground, engendering a certain awareness of the fact that I was essentially piloting half a ton of tin can around. In that I seldom went faster than 40mph because it was frankly terrifying!

I think personal transport is going to decline soon, and I have no idea what we're going to do as it's bound to hit us first. I can't imagine moving back into a town (I have too much love invested in my garden here) so I guess I should be thinking about retraining to do something from home...

perhaps we should suggest a selfsufficientish "4x4 owners club forum!"

... for responsible and appropriate use of 4x4s - I'm all for it!

I've even done the off-road driving course now, as potentially I might have to do that in my job from time to time. Boy, what a feeling, rolling downhill like that Not going to be my future hobby, that's for sure!

Chickpea wrote:So basically I think a lot of it is sexist, based on an attitude that women should drive little Fiestas and 2CVs but men can rightly drive big powerful cars. It's not the sight of a big car, it's the sight of a woman behind the wheel that offends people.

To begin with I didn't really grasp what this comment was all about. But then I read Martin's extraordinary thoughts, and it all made depressing sense.

what's depressing about telling the truth? Our lanes are FULL of badly driven mpvs, almost all are driven by women with school age children, they hardly EVER have more than two tiny kids in them - yes, a mini or 2cv would be MUCH more appropriate (as it would be for their husbands if they were for instance, repping)..........it may not fit with "politically correct attitudes" but it is a fact!
-if you'd had to reverse 50 or more yards back to let the typical mpv driver who has missed their pull in by six feet through arrogance, or more typically lack of observation - who then sit there helpless, unable to reverse!!!!!!!!! - as many times as I have, you may have a touch of a jaundiced view of the breed too!

No, Martin, that's a load of crap; your comments don't represent any sort of 'fact'. There is absolutely no evidence that women make worse drivers than men; there is absolutely no evidence that they make more mistakes; there is absolutely no evidence that they have less control over the vehicles they drive. Assigning this to political correctness is utterly irrelevant.

Let's put this in perspective of some of your own comments:

On this and other threads, Martin wrote:...cyclists are in-season at the moment! - particularly those with the plastic growths on their self-righteous heads, and spandex displaying their cellulite! Cool
My suggestion, get a Merc with a very powerful air horn - if the horn don't shift 'em, you've got a fore sight!

...back in the dark ages of my youth, cyclists "knew their place"

...the "bloody well wait" attitude is unforgiveable, as is the refusal to acknowledge that you have treated them with respect - it costs nothing to raise a hand in "thankyou"

...I'm awfully tempted to drop a cog, spin the wheels, lean on the horn, and hope they land in the hedge!

...cretinous idiots who drive the big petrol 4x4s

...they are usually driven INCREDIBLY badly by women

...I will make full use in nudging them into the ditch!

Our lanes are FULL of badly driven mpvs, almost all are driven by women

Ironically said or not, what there does seem to be plenty of is your own sense of self-righteousness and rectitude, even arrogance, along with a lack of patience and understanding, and some appalling advice.

Unfortunately, others seem to be in this misery fest, too. It's the norm on some of the less enlightened motoring newsgroups, but on this forum, seems to be a surprising vent for some people's dark sides.

Step down from your morally judgmental high ground, stop huffin' and puffin' about the lack of competence of other drivers, it never achieves anything. The deal is, there will be drivers of all abilities on the road, and you will encounter them. Either accomodate this fact dispassionately and to the best of your ability, or become, yourself, the type of driver you seem to despise. If you don't allow other people the right to make mistakes, or take the time to figure things out, or even to do things that you don't understand, then you become the problem.

In my own experience, I find that the less judgmental I am about other drivers, the better they seem to drive; the more dispassionately I concentrate on my own job of driving, the fewer mistakes they make; the more I try to be a better driver, the better everyone else becomes.

If we have got to the point where we cannot afford the patience for a few moments behind cyclists (in a lifetime of driving, this is going to amount to a few minutes max), or we scorne other's because they haven't thanked us for doing what we should have done without expectation of thanks, or we hate other people for the type of vehicle they drive and make moral judgements and presumptions about their character, lives and worth, then we really have got our own values and priorities in a mess.

ho hum!
I stuck my tongue firmly in my cheek, and had a good natured hack at what many of us see every day - of course I won't run some idiot of the road - but it does make the point that they can become SO frustrating, that the thought does cross one's mind!
After 40 years of driving, the advice which I was given on the first day behind the wheel still holds true "Drive as though everyone else is a homicidal maniac out to get you" - trouble is, nowadays, it appears all too horribly true!

If you missed it , the point I and many others were trying to make is that cyclists are often very rude and dangerous road users, and that many people are driving cars badly that are FAR too big for the job!
Why do I get cross with bad drivers? - dead simple - they could kill me (or you!) - I made light of it, but how many times do you look at the mpv in front, and realise that the rear-view mirror is either obscured with "brat on board, incompetent at the wheel" stickers, or is angled to reflect their knees!
(not that they ever use them for anything BUT make-up adjustments) - usually driven one-handed whilst using a mobile 'phone, or wiping sprog's nose! - I'm sorry, if you're going to drive, give it ALL your attention! I try all I can to be considerate, but it's a two-way thing - cyclists should respect motorists too, and if people must drive enormous vehicles, they should learn how wide they are, and how to drive them! At the moment it's all "respect pedestrians, cyclists etc.", but nothing about teaching kids NOT to wander into the road without looking whilst texting, or getting horse riders to give a cheery wave to thank you for getting stuck in the ditch to let them pass!
I would remind you that we're both 4x4 drivers - I'm quite expecting lots of good-natured "stick" about it - but then I have a sense of humour!

ps, just to confirm your worst fears, I will be watching Top Gear tonight - I may not agree with him on much, but I love his irreverence!

I think I'll quote my own post from one of the other cyclist rant threads...

Anyway - I think that we all need to treat fellow road users with respect... and that means all of us.. whether we are cyclists, pedestrians, horseriders, car drivers, or bikers.

I think respect for our fellow earthdwellers is so important in all situations... don't you?

Martin... wiping sprog's nose?! No way.... anyway, in my experience I've noticed it's the blokes that tend to take their eyes off the road more than the women... although I will admit that it can be quite stressful in the car with the kids - and on this point it doesn't matter what car is being driven.

I had a child on board thing in the back of my car - I had hoped it might persuade other roadusers to have a bit of respect for me... but no... doesn't make any difference at all. That said, it doesn't block my view

Children should walk to school where possible... if that's not possible (like in our case because school was five miles away) then make use of public transport IF available... MPV's are often essential when people have more than two children... I know that if my three children, and David are in the car with me there is no room to breathe... thus we tend to use the landrover on such occasions... I can see the sense in MPV's - and why would anyone drive an MPV unless they had a lot of passengers to ferry about.

Luckily for me Chris moves up to the academy in August and will be on school transport HOORAHHHH!!!!!! It's 24 miles (round trip) to the academy - wouldn't want to do that twice a day every day.

It's not always big cars that cause the problems though...many times it's the teenagers/snazzy business men/super tractors roaring past on a dangerous bend leaving us choking in their exhaust fumes.

While we are on the subject I guess we could find fault in the little old man taking his wife to the shops - driving at 20 miles per hour on a 60 mph road... I used to get fed up with that... but don't any more.. I'll still get there without honking my horn and being aggressive towards him... when it's safe to pass I will pass him, until then I'll just stay patient... I'd rather arrive alive and be 10 minutes late!


Top Gear! Hmmmm I like the little bloke on there better than Clarkson... Richard whateverisnameis....hammond i think. Clarkson is just arrogant and chauvenistic - he is funny sometimes though lol.

Anyway - that's enough waffling from me... trying to read back what I've written but it's not easy in this little typing window so I'm going to preview first to make sure I've not said anything that I'll regret

other road users to which I could apply my ire - "kerb divers" - people who head for the kerb when they pull in to allow the opposite lane of traffic to proceed - when 6 inches would have been more than adequate - the queue then has to wait until they've wound their way back out from the kerb and past the parked car, obviating a clear road in both directions to do so!
the "I've got an invisible caravan" on the back merchants, who rather than turning directly left, swing right into your lane, THEN turn left........
And last but not least "Mr 42mph man" - his car is on permanent 42 mph cruise control in a 60 limit area - the road is clear and dry, conditions are perfect, but he is going to stick at 42 mph, come what may - you philosophically shrug your shoulders, and say "fair nuff, it's a free country", and you hang back, awaiting the only safe passing place on the entire 5 mile road - you indicate clearly, drop a cog, and accelerate smartly past, leaving acres of room for them - I've had them suddenly hit the brakes, try to swerve into my path to stop me, lean on the horn!!!!.........
As Shirlz said, manners cost nothing - for everybody!

Martin wrote:of course I won't run some idiot of the road

That's the bit. That bit there - do you see it? The moral judgement. The aloof elitism. The attitude that shows you think you are different.

No one sets out to be an idiot. But everyone, everyday, makes mistakes and misjudges things. Some of them will eventually qualify for the epithet of 'idiot', but you usually need to be as experienced in it as, say, George W Bush, for the title to stick. And even he didn't set out to be thought of like that.

"Drive as though everyone else is a homicidal maniac out to get you"

No, no, a thousand times. That's the sort of attitude that becomes self-fulfilling. That's the sort of attitude that makes you call ordinary people, no worse than you, idiots. NONE of them are homicidal maniacs, and NONE of them are out to get you. And even if they were, it should be irrelevant to your own approach to your own driving.

Instead, drive as if everyone, including yourself, is error-prone, liable to misunderstand, sometimes foolish, sometimes clever, and is hampered by an ego. In practice, that means giving time, leaving room, and letting others (and yourself) get on with those mistakes with as much safety and dignity as possible. That's what the job is. You don't have to understand their motives, or even approve of them, but it's going to happen. If simple, everyday fallibility is all it takes for you to define people as idiots, then I'd suggest it is time to reassess your own claim to humanity.

I realise well enough that your comments were flippant, but I also think you were taking the opportunity to perpetuate an attitude that only demeans us. In the main, I try to avoid joining in 'isn't-it-terrible-the-way-people-behave-on-the-roads' threads, because I've seen them become so didactic on other forums. In the end, no one learns anything, everyone becomes entrenched, and eventually we get a war. I really don't understand the anti-cyclist lobby, even if cyclists do ride on pavements (sidewalks) and through red lights. I'm not approving of this, but I don't really see why it should affect my own approach to my own driving - it's likely to happen, whatever I think of it, so I'd better be able to accomodate it in my driving style. Nor do I understand the ant-horse, anti-pedestrian and anti 4x4 brigades (though I do despise the way some designers deliberately emphasise a 4x4s intimidating looks). Also, I'm not against cars, but I do think we should reassess the position of traffic in our lives, and it is my understanding that a road, unless otherwise defined, is a right of way. That means all foot traffic, cyclists, and vehicles licensed for use on a public highway, the blind, the deaf, horses, children, impolite people, and, yes, idiots, have equal entitlement.

I'm all in favour of better educated motoring, but as far as I can see, this starts when you understand that there will be times when you will be 'that idiot', and that it may be more frequent than you realise.

Muddypause wrote:
Instead, drive as if everyone, including yourself, is error-prone, liable to misunderstand, sometimes foolish, sometimes clever, and is hampered by an ego. In practice, that means giving time, leaving room, and letting others (and yourself) get on with those mistakes with as much safety and dignity as possible. That's what the job is. You don't have to understand their motives, or even approve of them, but it's going to happen.

Nail on the head!! I think that is sooooooooo true.. I have days when I can drive really well, and others where I keep making mistakes... we all do I'm sure! A day when we aren't concentrating because we are tired, child screaming in the back, whatever the reason. Being aware that we are all human is definitely a good thing.

what would your prefer I call them? - "idiot" or "that nice person who has gone out of their way to insult me by putting a crass brat on board sticker in the back of their car" ? - this is actual observed, consistently dangerous, unobservant driving - it is all too frequent - and I get heartily sick of the "ohhhh you mustn't criticise them, we're all fallible lobby" - that sort of idiocy KILLS PEOPLE! If you catch me driving badly, yell at me- I'll deserve it - in the meantime, allow me to have a humorous hack at awful driving!
Not using your mirror properly is dangerous, not keeping proper full observation is dangerous, and everyone who uses the roads should extend the greatest courtesy to other road users - presumably according to your rules I mustn't criticise because that's being elitist..........that path leads to mediocrity - you follow it if you wish!

Martin wrote:what would your prefer I call them? - "idiot" or "that nice person who has gone out of their way to insult me by putting a crass brat on board sticker in the back of their car" ?

No need to call them anything. It's none of your business what sort of people they are. Just get on with the job of driving to the best of your ability.

I get heartily sick of the "ohhhh you mustn't criticise them, we're all fallible lobby"

Me too. I'm all for improving driving standards. Negligence should not be without penalty, and an appropriate critical analysis is necessary for that to happen. But I am much more interested in the idea that my own driving should aspire to a standard that can deal with other's errors. Assessing their IQs becomes pointless beyond that.

Think about it. You only control the car you are in. That really is the beginning and the end of it. No matter how much you shout, rant and rave, you cannot control the other car. You can raise your blood preasure to critical levels, you can mark out a moral high ground, you can be as indignant as you like. And all of it to no avail. Call people idiots, and then what? The circumstances remain unaltered. You have not gained an insight into their view, and they won't be sharing yours. Clearly, wasting all that energy is absolutely, utterly and completely useless. The only consequence it can possibly have is to make your own driving worse.

that sort of idiocy KILLS PEOPLE!

Oh, god, yes, I'd forgotten about the trump card. Talk about fatal consequences, and win any argument. It could be children, don't forget.

Remember, folks, call more people idiots, and SAVE LIVES.

If you catch me driving badly, yell at me- I'll deserve it

Well, don't think I'm not tempted. But actually, it seems more sensible to spend my efforts concentrating on my own driving. If I have to concern myself with commentating on yours too, I'll probably make my own worse. Anyway, shouldn't that be your job? In any case it is unlikely that a) you'll hear me; b) you'll be receptive to the analysis.

allow me to have a humorous hack at awful driving!

Well yes, of course; by all means. But don't forget, this is the internet, and I am contractually obliged to hack back when the occasion seems appropriate. With varying amounts humour. (Clause 58, sub.3, para 5-17)

presumably according to your rules I mustn't criticise because that's being elitist

Criticism of this nature is irrelevant. And if you criticise as a way to establish your superiority, it can be disastrous. I mean, really, we don't drive in order to assess other people, do we? What's the point of that? What a complete and utter waste of time.

My own driving is consistently better when I am at my most dispassionate - and, surprisingly (and really rather wonderfully), so is everyone else's, too. That's a lesson I have to re-learn frequently (hey, I appreciate this is not easy). Disconnect your ego from your driving.

that path leads to mediocrity - you follow it if you wish!

Yep, my miserable life is just one big cesspit of mediocrity. If only there were a few idiots about in it, things would be so much better.

I do think 4x4's are scapegoats for the whole 'you don't need one of them' arguments, from people in general and even the government with the new road tax band charges. We have a 4x4 and a rusty old Seat and we use the 4x4 for moving large items (like sheep) which won't go in the Seat very well, getting out of the farm lane in the middle of February, towing big trailers and very very occasionally if we both need seperate cars at the same time.

The rustbucket Seat does everything else and when it gets replaced with a newer car it may well even manage farm lanes in the ice if we go for a diesel again (good torque gets even a Fiesta up hills in ice weather)

But no I don't use the Defender, which does have bull bars but doesn't have rear seats, heating or a CD player, for nipping down Tescos or posing up the motorway. Its in no way a pose-mobile.

Personally, and in an effort to deflect some of the flack from Martin for the women drivers comments (Martin its not a women thing its a people daft enough to drive their kids half a mile to school thing, the men who drop their kids off have about thje same proportion of ineptness) I blame the whole unecologically sound car issue on Americans and TV glamorisation. Before 'Dallas' all my parents mates drove Minis.