self sufficiency an expensive hobby #2 ,or what do you do

[paul123456]

Hello there ,

seems the topic has run a bit dead .What I make of it then is that being ss is up to everybody for themselves ,what they do ,and as much as they can do ,depending on their situation.

I still think it is needed to buy in (expensive ) organic food to be as much as possible ss ,that's my opinion though.

And still to be very ss ,money is required .Even if it's only for making your own power and energy .

The statement I read that to be ss you have to be mortgage free ,yes I can live with that , I think that people are lured into
putting their necks in the guillotine , in this way they will have to work to repay , thats what the governments like .
The same governments that allowed the banks to get financially bigger than themselves , then eventually bail them out with our money.

What about stating what you do to be ss ?

We do veg 10% ,
energy 70%,
use bikes 10%,
own chickens and rabbits ,
use an make compost ,
recycle our waste for 80%,

anyone want to add one ,?,

regards ,

Paul

[red]

I still think it is needed to buy in (expensive ) organic food to be as much as possible ss ,that's my opinion though.

No I dont agree. You do not need to be organic or grow or buy organic food to be self sufficient. I dont understand why you think so? Perhaps you mean "to be self sufficient, only choose organic and grow none of it yourself' is an expensive hobby? but even then I think you are wrong, as you could as Flo said in the other thread, acquire these organic goods through barter etc.

[red]

What about stating what you do to be ss ?

We do veg 10% ,
energy 70%,
use bikes 10%,
own chickens and rabbits ,
use an make compost ,
recycle our waste for 80%,

anyone want to add one ,?,

we are almost SS in veg - we buy onions and a few other bits and pieces.
we half heat our home with own firewood
we raise lambs to eat,
we raise pigs to eat
we raise chickens to eat, and give us eggs. surplus eggs pay for hen food
we compost
we spin dye and knit wool from our own sheep
we make our own jams and preserves
we do our own house renovations


but i make a point of trying to get what we cannot provide ourselves, from as near to home as possible. I see it like radiating circles, the closer to home the better. so meat we dont raise ourselves, i get from the local butcher who gets from local farms. so our dependency is more on the local community.
Every step towards self sufficiency is one less dragging down resourses. As climate change takes hold, the population grows etc, we shall need to look more to home to provide, and each step in the right direction, even if its only making your own soup, or growing a row of potatoes etc, each step takes pressure off and the need to import food declines.

For me, being SS is not the expensive 'hobby' - but raising a child with a disability proved to be. My chances of following a career path vanished, as I have to provide for my son, in person. Every thing we can do for ourselves, from raising our own food to making repairs ourselves is a money saving exercise

[KathyLauren]

We are not nearly as self-sufficient as we want to be.

We are starting to grow our own veggies. We did pretty well this season, and plan to expand the garden next year.

We are vegan, which reduces our environmental footprint and makes food self-sufficiency more practical.

We buy locally when we can. I have heard it said that, environmentally, buying locally is more important than buying organic. Luckily, for us, it's not an either-or proposition. Local produce here is almost all organic.

We recycle as much as the local depot allows. We throw out only one bag of garbage every two weeks.

I have learned a lot of home building and repair skills, and do most of our renovations myself.

We collect rainwater for the garden. Considering that we have have had almost no rain since the spring, that is vital to gardening.

We heat the house with wood. In order to build up our supply over the past couple of years, we had to buy it, but now that the woodshed is full, I should be able to maintain the supply from our own woodlot.

We would like to be more energy self-sufficient. We plan to install solar hot water. Solar electric might work at our site - it's marginal - but we will likely get more bang for the buck by just reducing our consumption. Because we are surrounded by tall trees, wind power is not a realistic option.

Our community is starting to get active in promoting community self-sufficiency. In particular, there is a growing movement to promote local agriculture. This island used to be a net exporter of food to the surrounding cities. There is no reason it couldn't once again be self-sufficient in food. We are totally on board with helping this movement in any way we can.

[contadino]

I still think it is needed to buy in (expensive ) organic food to be as much as possible ss ,that's my opinion though.

Well you're wrong. There is absolutely no link between being self-sufficient and buying in expensive organic produce. It's like chalk and cheese. Loads have people have explained that to you, but you seem unable to grasp it.

And still to be very ss ,money is required .Even if it's only for making your own power and energy .

The statement I read that to be ss you have to be mortgage free ,yes I can live with that , I think that people are lured into
putting their necks in the guillotine , in this way they will have to work to repay , thats what the governments like .

Yes, being debt-free is only part of the issue. The capital costs for projects like solar hot water, wood-stoves, wind turbines, etc... need to be taken into account. If you're being pretty much self-sufficient, your income is so low that paying for big ticket items like these is a no-no. They have to be taken into consideration as part of your setup costs.


What about stating what you do to be ss ?

We do veg 10%

We're more like 95% - we do still buy in grain.

energy 70%

We have solar DHW, and the house is heated by wood-burners with wood from on-site. The electricity bills have fallen about 80% since we got here. I still have plans to put up a hybrid PV/wind turbine system when I get some time.

use bikes 10%

Huh? Got bikes, use them. Do you mean in exchange for the car?

own chickens and rabbits

Yes.

use an make compost

Yes.

recycle our waste for 80%

Do you mean having a cess pit? Or not going to the bins?

anyone want to add one?

Yes, off-grid for water? Without a telephone line? Internet access? Petrol/diesel consumption of tools (chainsaws, strimmers, etc...) Booze?

[Jandra]

I think selfsufficiency is an illusion.

Historically communities may have been (almost) entirely self sufficient, but trade for rather essential items like salt etc. is very old. In the bronze age necklaces from Egypt were transported to western Europe. Now we don't know what perishable items were traded, but I think that very few communities had everything they needed from materials to tan leather, to salt, to iron/metal (!).

Sure, over the last years I've grown 90% of my own veg. Was that self sufficient? Neeeh, I purchased the seeds. So, a zero self sufficiency score there, in all honesty. If my bike breaks, do I have to buy components? Yes, up to a certain extent I can fix things (using rubber bands and wire and duct tape which was produced God knows where), but my bike is not self sufficient.

Everything I own has it's origins in materials and tools which I have not produced myself. Either I bought them or traded for them, or they were given to me. My house is full of electronics, metals, plastics, paints and other materials which I could never have produced myself. And guess what: I wouldn't have it any other way. I would not cherish a life in which I had to provide everything for myself. Frankly: I'd not survive.

So in that sense Paul has a point: you really have to acquire a lot of stuff to even be able to pretend you're self sufficient. It is expensive either in money or in the resources needed for us to acquire this stuff (mining for metals, production processes).

And many things that people here do are only viable because not everyone is doing them.
If everyone started foraging, pretty soon the country/cityside would be devoid of edibles. If everyone heated/cooked with woodstoves, pretty soon there would be massive air pollution (as not everyone has a super modern afterburning woodstove, and partial burning of wood is a massive producer of fine particles in the air causing many deaths each year) and on top of that we'd soon run out of wood to burn.
Freecycling and thriftshops are only there thanks to the people who throw out stuff easily. If everyone started living frugally and making do and mend, pretty soon the thrift shops would get quite a bit less to sell and of lesser quality.

Does that get me down? Of course not! That would be the silliest thing. As many people here already said: it is a matter of degree. For me the goal is not total self sufficiency. The goal is creating a society that's sustainable and learning basic skills for doing things myself. So I try to use less plastic, electronics and paint. I try to use the bike more often or walk in stead of drive. I may purchase my seeds as long as there's no need to save my own, but I do grow veg and fruit. I try to recycle and rid myself of the ridiculous consumerism that still has me (unfortunately) quite firmly in it's grip.

Uhm... well, that's a bit more than I intended to write on the topic, but I'll press the submit-button anyway, for what it's worth.

Jandra

[Flo]

seems the topic has run a bit dead .What I make of it then is that being ss is up to everybody for themselves ,what they do ,and as much as they can do ,depending on their situation.

"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." Mahatma Gandhi

I still think it is needed to buy in (expensive ) organic food to be as much as possible ss ,that's my opinion though.

That's a totally environmental issue at root and nothing to do with being self sufficient. Organic leaves less footprint on the plant and does not depend on the use of chemicals. Of course in the future it may become necessary for everyone to become organic as happened to Cuba when it was left to its own devices with no support from any other source. Bu that is another topic altogether.

Please don't get into sloppy thinking and typing if you want to provoke a good debate as it will lead to entrenched sides one refusing to hear what you really want to say and you with no ability to come back and defend your viewpoint with a better explanation or an acceptance that maybe the other side has some right in its thinking.

Now don't take that the wrong way - but to keep saying the same thing without explaining why you think it is necessary is not the way that you get into a proper discussion and debate. It just leads people to say they disagree with you (well that's fair in a discussion) but doesn't leave you the chance to say why you think as you do.

And still to be very ss ,money is required .Even if it's only for making your own power and energy .

You seem to be very concerned with money as if it is the whole focus of your life to have money to do anything. Why is this?

The statement I read that to be ss you have to be mortgage free ,yes I can live with that , I think that people are lured into
putting their necks in the guillotine , in this way they will have to work to repay , thats what the governments like .
The same governments that allowed the banks to get financially bigger than themselves , then eventually bail them out with our money.

Sure it would be nice to be free of mortgage, or in my case not have to pay rent. I don't think that we need to digress into the motives of government here except to say that whatever way you choose to live will involve paying taxes of some sort so long as there is a government.

What about stating what you do to be ss ?

We do veg 10% ,
energy 70%,
use bikes 10%,
own chickens and rabbits ,
use an make compost ,
recycle our waste for 80%,
anyone want to add one ,?,

Your list is based on the way that you live in the society that you know and the way we have lived for the past two or three generations. I would challenge you to list what you think are the essentials for your life rather than wants, keeping up with the neighbours and how you want to live and spend your income.

The basic requirements for a human being to live are shelter, warmth, food, water and clothes. Can you build your own house from materials that you have to hand? And do you have the skills? Can you make the spade and fork that you use to cultivate your own vegetables? And do you have the skills? Can you produce all the materials that you need to make your own cooking utensils and clothes? And do you have the skills? Can you grow and store all your own food? And do you have the skills? Can you make any essential furniture (cooking utensils, crockery, bed, table, chair) that you find you need to be able to eat and sleep? And do you have the skills?

Do you save your own seeds so that you can produce your vegetables without depending on others? Do you breed your own chickens and rabbits so that you do not need anyone to supply you? Do you provide all the food for both sets of animals or do you buy in?

Do you rely on others to dispose of waste that you can't reuse or recycle within your own home and garden?

I go back to the fact that we all seem to depend on others for the basics of life and that no person can be totally self sufficient but that a small community can be. That's why people started to live in groups, clans, tribes, villages. They found that one person alone could not survive but that a group could.

I would also say that most of us need to reconsider what we think is essential. I suspect that we would all be a lot more self sufficient if we lived for our needs not our wants. Even the bike on Paul's list is a want not a need. If you can ride a bike you can walk - therefore a bike is not a need.

[boboff]

Cool, great debate on here, Jandra's response I think summed up where we are, and was very well written without being to aggressive.

In reality we all need to reduce our impact on the world, I read in some book from the Library that it was all about oil, and it's the needs of the generations over the last two hundred years which has seen the extraction of fossil fuels so fast that we can not "heal" the resources of the planet in Millennia, let alone in our generation which prior to this we could.( The trees we burned grew as fast as we used them etc)

This is a hard fact of life, and a greatly worrying one.

The other side of self sufficiency is the "hippy" one, and this get's confused with the core needs of changing societies behavior to avert an eventual collapse.

Trying to reduce your impact and have a more sustainable economy is where we should be concentrating, sustainable agriculture and living is really what I aspire too, not to be self sufficient.

If my Broad Beans get Black fly next year I will spray them with proper insecticide very early on, it's brilliant! Lots better than farting around with Soap and rotting Rhubarb leaves!

Next year I will kill weeds on a patch with weed killer, leave and then dig it all in, that way my rotavator won't cut Dock roots into millions of pieces which mean I spend weeks pulling them out again.

These two things which are not hippy organic things, I will do, because it will make my gardening more sustainable.

If you are selective, and make informed decisions on tactics to make your personal work more effective and productive, then I am sorry to say that those are the choices I will make.

The other thing I have learned this year is a man can never have enough SH1t!

[JulieSherris]

My tuppenny's worth....

When I think back over the last year, I realise how far Andy & I have come in the SS-ish game... remember that in the July I bought the SS-ish bible... which led to us viewing a house - which we didn't buy, but in the September we did buy where we are now.....

A year ago, we were using oil for heating/water, paying rent, flicking switches whenever we needed to, just because we could... nowadays, we have only a very old Stanley - which is lit around every once a fortnight at the moment - we have a leccy shower to clean ourselves & a dishwasher for the pots & anything else gets the cold water treatment, or has to wait for the kettle - or just doesn't get done
Our fuel for the Stanley is mainly peat turf - which will be from our bogs next year at a cost of around 360 euros for the year & also from the many trees which we cleared last winter.... so no more 250 euros a month for oil.

Yes, we have a mortgage, no we have no debt, no credit cards, no loans, no HP etc etc...

Our veggies come from the garden - 100% at the moment - oh no, I buy mushrooms... that's it.
We have our birds in now for eggs & will be eating our own chicks & guinea fowl as soon as they are hatched & grown
Our leccy bills for the year total around 750 euros - so an average of 15 euros a week - which I think isn't too bad at all.
And I have a gas hob run from a gas bottle - just 1 per year, as the Stanley is used for cooking when it's on.

Now, I think we are pretty much self-sufficient in the things that cost us hard cash each week - my weekly shopping bills have halved, and we eat a much healthier diet than we did before.

I don't understand the connection between BUYING organic food (how about GROWING some???) and self-sufficiency....
I DO understand the connection between me taking my basket out to the garden & filling it with a cabbage, some peas & beans & cucumbers, etc.... and walking the 100 yards or so back to the kitchen to prepare it all... now THAT to me is my level of being SS-ish - and yep, it may sound smug - but hey, no-one said you have to be humble to be SS-ish!

[grahamhobbs]

If you got blackfly on your broad beans this year, I'd suggest you don't jump to buying some poison spray next year. This year was a bad year for blackfly, all around me people were complaining about how bad it was. On my plot my nasturiums got badly hit but the broad beans were hardly touched and a hose soon dealt with them. I therefore recommend that everyone plants nasturiums near their broad beans next year. As you can eat the flowers, leaves and seeds and cabbage white butterflies prefer them to cabages - it's win win all round.

[paul123456]

Hello there ,

so it does seem that money is the main ingredient to being as much as ss as possible.

What folk , including myself find really important is to be ss mortgage/rent wise ,this gives you a lot of freedom
to make decisions .We've been out of mortgage and debt now since 1999 ,and since then the pace of life has slowed down.
For sometimes , then speeds up , you create more time and space in one way but spend more time on others matters.

The phrase self sufficient should be replaced with partly self sufficient , yes I agree with yees that 100% is a no go.
Also I find that it goes belly up in a certain way as being explained that being ss is trying to save as much money as possible,
I can not agree on that , there should be a cerculation of at least some money.

L.e.t.s seems to be a good thing but alas not here around my plot .

It seems that the core of being pss is trying to produce as much as possible of your own ,

veg ,
power ,
fruit,
and so on ,

then depending on your own skills ,and available time , as much as other repairs ,or making things as
you can do ,allowed by your available time ,funds ,skills and so on .

We try as much as we can to be ss ,does not always work out though , but at least we've tried.
And we'll always have to depend on other people/manufacturers for goods ,seeds ,power and so on .
But at least we've tried ,not everyone can say that.

And , here we go again , my idea of being pss , is growing as much veg and fruit as possible,
and where you do not have ,or produce enough , then you have to buy in ,and to my opinion that is the best to be organic.

We drive around in cars now , I drive alot ,because I have to provide funds to keep the circus running.
I've always said if I ever win the lottery I'll get rid of the cars and buy a real way of transport ,

donkey and cart ,

That's it for now ,

regards ,

Paul

[Russian Doll]

The phrase self sufficient should be replaced with partly self sufficient , yes I agree with yees that 100% is a no go.
Also I find that it goes belly up in a certain way as being explained that being ss is trying to save as much money as possible,
I can not agree on that , there should be a cerculation of at least some money.



Paul

your allready on a forum that states self sufficent ish

as far as i have read this forum its about being as self suff as you can be...i live in a second floor council flat with a balconey...but i grow veg, recycle and reuse everything....shop in charity shops as much as poss and forage...my kids fav breakfast treat is fresh blackberries they pick while were walking the dog at 6 in the morning....taste blinding with the dew on them

i would love to be more self suff but my circumstances hold me back

[eccentric_emma]

so it does seem that money is the main ingredient to being as much as ss as possible.

i wouldn't say this is true, i would say that creativity is probably the main ingredient, because although yes, you could spend a lot of money on equipment etc to become self sufficient, with a bit of thought and effort you could get things for free (freecycle, skip diving etc), or try to make things out of junk - e.g. a rocket stove from an old oil drum. at the very least, buying second hand would reduce your costs many times. i try to remember that there was once a time before money and gadgets and what did people do before then, and can i do it too?

as for organic produce - yes it is the best (provided it is local!), for your health and the environment, but doesnt necessarily have to be expensive. supermarkets have made organic produce expensive, true, and the smaller, cheaper veg box schemes appear to be disappearing to Riverford (mine old veg box scheme has and is now far too expensive to consider buying), however you could make friends with allotment holders or just ask around your neighbourhood - i bet you will find somebody growing food who cant eat it all. a lady at my mums church brings in organic produce every week and sells it very cheap because she has deliberately grown lots more than she needs - last week we got two great lettuces for 30p!

personally i think the key to self sufficiency is to adapt yourself - instead of deciding on something you want and trying to get it - see what is easily available and see if you can adapt your life to incorporate that - within reason of course! for example, when i am more ss in veg i will eat more raw veggies because that saves on fuel for cooking, saves on time and is good for your health. i am also vegan (not entirely for ssish reasons), which means when i have my piece of land, i will not have to spend the time looking after animals and spending out on fencing, coops etc, although i admit this step is not for everyone!

I do feel that self sufficiency shouldn't require you to cut yourself off from everyone else. That's why i like SSish because it is that midway point - starting to rely on yourself more instead of expecting everything to be done for you. For me SSish is about self reliance and also about building good relationships within your community so that you can barter and skillswap so you don't have to rely on money/supermarkets/big industry to get the things you can't provide for yourself.