The Education System

[JulieSherris]

Errrmmm ... that's "elementary entities per mole" Julie. As you know

Mike

Git.

Elements as in bits / things / items / bits of stuff / elementary entities. 'k?

[MKG]

Sorry Julie - I would normally never have mentioned it, but - well, you know how it is - my rote learning gave me a nudge. Good stuff, isn't it?

Mike

[pelmetman]

I reckon I was lucky to leave school without an education ..................... I realised about 14 that I am not academically gifted ..........so I switched off

My final years in education were a waste of time for them and me, and I have for a long time thought our education system is biased towards the kids who can remember lots of crap ............Not only that the education mafia who run our asylums....I mean schools..... are academic snobs ,,, Who look down on the vocational gifted as second class citizens ..................Which is why all the money is spent on the kids who can remember crap and the kids who can't, get told they are a waste of space and will never suceed without qualifications

Its just as well I was not bright enough to be a teacher ............as I doubt I could get by on the money

Dave

[chickenchargrill]

Julie - Got to thank you for pointing out the errors in this thread. I'm an assistant editor on a magazine and, although I tell myself this is just a forum and people aren't expected to proofread their own posts, it hurts to see so many mistakes in one thread. We all do make mistakes from time to time. The only problem with the spell check thingamajig is it doesn't pick up incorrect homophones.

I've adopted this strategy -

http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2 ... thing.html

[grahamhobbs]

[quote="MKG"]Just got time for this one ...

I'm beginning to detect a worrying (to me) prejudice against success. ....... Human beings (that's us), and therefore children, are predisposed to competition. It's the nature of the beast (and let's not get into arguments about the rectitude of that statement. Anthropology, biology, history and the more sensible bits of sociology suggest this to be true).

I detect a worrying prejudice that competition equals success. Whereas without cooperation virtually nothing would ever have been achieved.

Taking the discussion in a completely different direction, the most exciting thing I ever heard about education was when state education was first introduced in thIs country in the late 19th cent, at first is was not obligatory and many people in the East End of London boycotted the new schools because they saw it as indoctrination, but a couple of teenage girls decided to set up their own school, inviting people to teach and give lectures. If the teacher wasn't any good they weren't invited back. the school was an enormous success and continued even after state schooling became compulsory, kids attending in the evening after the state school.

[boboff]

Thanks to Julie for the spelling corrections.

Given most were mine, I have absolutely no issue with being shown the correct spelling, I do try with it, and mostly they are typo's, but that bacalaureat one with bits obove letters, I wouldn't even know where to type them!

I would still be interested in Mikes feedback on the tests.

[julie_lanteri]

boboff: my laptop has a French keyboard. It is different so we have all the accents and things; like those: é è ç à ï ê (I could do more but that would just be showing off :p )

To go back to the tests, primary SATs and GCSEs are totally different. When you get to GCSE, the higher papers are challenging (so they should be) but the foundation ones are a bit of a joke! Also it's not just how "hard" the test questions are but how they are taught to approach them. It seems that more and more we can't teach them how to really do things quickly and efficiently (sorry I am really talking about what I know something about: maths and languages) but more finding complicated ways round it that maybe will lead them to the right answer.
eg: year 7 SAT paper 4 x ? = 2900
year 7 workings:
4 x 100 400
4 x 100 800
4 x 100 1200
4 x 100 1600
etc the child went on for 2 min and then still couldn't remember where the actual answer was!
old fashion way: 2900 divide by 4 (long method) done in 30 sec flat (by same child after showing him how to do it)
Of course the able kids will understand no matter how you explain things to them, but that's far from being the majority. And it's really frustrating not to be allowed to show them an effective way that will quickly get them to the right answer whether the question is 4 x ? = 2900 or 15 x ? = 328464

EDIT: thanks Mike for the compliment but I would go crazy. I can't stand inefficiency and am way too confrontational! (I got so frustrated just being a full time teacher that I quit my job and now happily-ish work as a supply teacher/tutor. Can't do anything else, I love teaching)

[Rosendula]

Taking the discussion in a completely different direction, the most exciting thing I ever heard about education was when state education was first introduced in thIs country in the late 19th cent, at first is was not obligatory and many people in the East End of London boycotted the new schools because they saw it as indoctrination, but a couple of teenage girls decided to set up their own school, inviting people to teach and give lectures. If the teacher wasn't any good they weren't invited back. the school was an enormous success and continued even after state schooling became compulsory, kids attending in the evening after the state school.

Graham, state education isn't compulsory in England. If your children reach school age and you don't want to send them to school, you simply don't. However, if you do send them to school and then decide you want to stop, you have to write and de-register. That said, parents are legally obliged to ensure their children receive a 'full-time' education which, in my opinion, means the majority of parents who send their children to school are breaking the law. As us home educators know, there is a vast difference between schooling and education.

[grahamhobbs]

Rosundula, schooling is not education, a very good point, I've always been impressed with the couple of kids I've known that have been educated at home, although as they got older they decided for themselves that they wanted to go to school because they felt a bit isolated, although they had lots of friends (of all ages), and also that their parents were getting to the limit of their knowledge and available time.

There have been many 'free' schools where kids decide for themselves whether they are going to attend lessons and debate and agree the school rules, etc, but the East End school is the only one I know of where kids have set up and run their own school.

Boboff, I was impressed with the test papers you showed, I'd also like to see some current GSCE exam papers, everyone blithely says they don't compare to 50 years ago.

[Green Aura]

I reckon I was lucky to leave school without an education

Judging by all your posts, Dave, your education was just fine - the grammar and spelling in your posts are fine and, as you seem to have had a pretty successful career where a lot of arithmetic's required, I'm guessing you came out with a good grounding in Maths too!

School shouldn't and can't train everyone to be philosophers or physicists, but giving kids sufficient skills in the 3Rs (and the application) to meet the demands of jobs and life, should be a given. That should be done in primary school and then secondary school should concentrate on developing the gifts that each child has - be that maths, art or carpentry. The problem with that is one of class sizes, where the highest and lowest achievers get ignored in favour of pushing a medium-level curriculum at the middling majority. Parents should supplement this education but their main educational role should be teaching their kids how to be decent human beings, capable of compassion and life skills, not replacing academe.

I think, Graham and Mike, that you're both posturing from corners but they're not mutually exclusive. There is a need for cooperation and competition. But I think the biggest emphasis on competition should be against oneself - to improve on our own endeavours.

It is a changing world, high speed, on demand, instantly gratifying, blah blah. But underpinning all of that is still the need to know the basics. Even fully automated processes start with a human and without those basic skills you get crap.....GIGO!

Finally (unless someone else bugs me ) my last words on this topic are to say that I've enjoyed it immensely! I love it when we have some good debates and still come out pals. (I'm also very grateful - as a mod I hate having to referee )

[grahamhobbs]

I think, Graham and Mike, that you're both posturing from corners but they're not mutually exclusive. There is a need for cooperation and competition. But I think the biggest emphasis on competition should be against oneself - to improve on our own endeavours.

Thanks Green Aura this is much better put than I could express, it's just that it seems that there has been a big swing back to competition in our society, everywhere you look, even TV programmes, everything is a competition, not only the Apprentice and Big Brother but even cooking programmes and You want to be a farmer. I think this is also happening in schools as well - league tables, Acadamies, etc. But as you say, there needs to be a balance, but I'd always favour a system that turns out kids that want to work for the common good than wants to 'beat everyone' and 'make money' (attributes of the highly paid and (until recently) highly respected gamblers in the city).

[MKG]

Ah, but that isn't what I meant, Graham and GA. I'm not suggesting for one moment that competition is everything. Cooperation is admirable and necessary and I haven't done it down anywhere. What gets my goat is the perceived targeting of competition as some kind of evil sociological invention. People are, by nature, competitive and cooperative - there's no dilemma there. Who on earth (in their right mind) decided to make a concerted attempt to get rid of it from education, considering that the newly cooperatively educated fledglings are going to leave school and hit a world which simply does not work solely in that way?

Cue potential employer ... "And what are your qualifications?"
Coop young person ... "Oh I got two Grade Cs. We all did except Spotty Swank. He's sitting outside now, but you won't want him because he's always trying to get to the top and enjoys outperforming the rest of us."
Potential employer ... "SWANK! Get your arse in here NOW. Well, Coop young person, thank you for coming. I'll let you know."

Mike

[Susie]

But I think the biggest emphasis on competition should be against oneself - to improve on our own endeavours.

This is so true!

[pelmetman]

Judging by all your posts, Dave, your education was just fine - the grammar and spelling in your posts are fine and, as you seem to have had a pretty successful career where a lot of arithmetic's required, I'm guessing you came out with a good grounding in Maths too!

Unfortunatly the education industry can claim little credit for what education I did get

My ability to read was due to a love of comics...............Maths was down to helping out in my parents shop, and getting a thick ear everytime I got the change wrong ........As for being able to string a sentence together.......I didn't get the hang of that until I was in the Navy, having got married I used to write to Sue everyday when I was away ...........and you can only write "got up and had breakfast" a few times before even the writer is shocked by his lack of ability

[oldjerry]

But I think the biggest emphasis on competition should be against oneself - to improve on our own endeavours.

This is so true!

Sounds like some Protestant Work-ethic inspired Hell to me....Sit down,Drink wine, Relax..........