"Can we talk" about

[oldfella]

Religion, Beliefs, Thoughts, Fears, etc.

In the forum we are having at the moment, a very interesting discussion, about Gay Marriages, which in my mind raised many common points of view, and of course , the diversity within our small community.

I find great pleasure to know we have such a diverse cross section of folk, Wicans, Agnostics, Atheist, Church, Pagans, and any that fall in any other section of society, and, I for one would find it interesting, and I think informative to read the, Thoughts,Hopes, Fears, Beliefs, and the reasoning behind your reasoning.

I hope others feel that this would make an interesting topic for discussion.

Eddy

[oldjerry]

I agree............you first!!!!!

[Green Aura]

I think it would be really interesting to see where people are coming from, sometimes it's fairly obvious - like me (old Leftie) but others take a more eclectic approach.

So, to echo OJ, you first

But keep it a clean fight folks

[demi]

i want to answer this one and as no one else is going first i suppose i will.


ok so incase you havent already noticed, im athiest. in that i dont believe in ANYTHING spooky, supernatural, fairys, religion, homeopathy or anything else that cant be scientifically proven.

i was brought up athiest. i share common interests in physics with my dad ( hes an engineer ) and biology and sociollogy with my mum ( shes a social worker, used to be a thieter nurse ). i studied zoology at uni. iv allways been facinated by the natural world. and iv allways dismissed mayjor religion.
i went through my teenage years 'trying to find myself' being first pagen then buddhist and by the time i went to uni i had relised its all a load of crap.
in my view, there are so many different religions how do you know you've got the right one? god is supposed to say not to worship anything else but him and if you do you'll go to hell.
i dont like things that force people into beliving through fear. i want evidence. there is none.
why does god hate africans? sending all those diseases and droughts to kill them? when we in the west are benifiting from the suffering of others and reaping the rewards?
they say god gave us free will to do what we want so he doesnt interfear. so whats the point in praying for somthing to happen if hes not supposed to interfear? remember that flood he sent to kill everyone coz we were all evil? if he gave us free will then why did he kill everyone for being bad when he was allowing us to do as we like?
the bible is constantly conrradicting itself.

it is impossible to prove somthing isnt there. like the 'theory' that their is a tea pot orbiting the earth. we know theres not, but you cant prove it.
and to those who say evolution is 'just a theory' , it is not just a theory, it is backed by an overwhelming amount of evidence supporting it, it has such an outstanding amount of conclusive evidence that it is acepted as a scientific fact.
where is the evidence for religion? non existant. if it were true you'd think the pope of whoever would be able to come up with some kind of genuine evidence to support it, but no , nothing, because you cannot prove something that doesnt exist.

if you read those religions books, the bible ect. they are full of horrific stories. women getting stonned to death for being raped ect. and in the koran it goes on constantly about how jews are evil and you should get rid of them.

religion is a man made concept created to control civilizations, through fear and punnishment. it was an ancient law enforcement. dont do that or your burn in hell for all eternity. back in the days when lawlessness was strife.
there is no need for it in todays modern society. we have all progressed from the days of killing your neibour for stealing your sheep.
you do not need religion to have good morals and anyone who thinks otherwise is just plain wrong.
religion teaches fear, hatred, rasism, sexism, antagonism, homophobia and unacceptance.
you cant pick and choose just the good bits on the bible/koran or whatever and leave out all the horrible bits to suger coat it so its all about love and forgivness. thats bull shit. either its right, bad bits and all, or the truth, its just a bunch of ancient man made stories.
people used to philosophise about how the world works and the reasons for things happening, thus religion was created to explain the unexplainable at the time. now everything can be explained by science. religion is out dated nonsence. come guys do we still think the eatth is flat and at the center of the universe. that blood letting cures illnesses, that a witches curse is the cause of your neibours cancer. and why is it ok to belive in religion but if you believed there was a monster living in your warbrobe you be locked up in the loony bin. it just doesnt make sence. there is a load of evidence disproving religion and none supporting it. it just doesnt add up. and if you say all you need is faith, thats not good enough. faith is meaningless. you cannot base a theory on blind faith.


and science is progressing at a phenominal rate. everyday we are gaining more and more understanding of how the universe really works. and that my friends is so much more mind boggeling and amazing than any fanticifull man made ghosts, gods and monsters that can ever be imagined my the mere human mind.

[boboff]

Where we live on the Banks of the River Tamar, there is a lock keepers cottage, and back in 1999 we had great floods, the man living in the cottage was a devout church goer and believed fundamentally in the word of God and the fact he had a plan for him. When the floods took hold this man was forced to climb from his bedroom window and sit on the roof. The local Policeman chucked a rope over and begged him to secure it to himself and be pulled to safety, the man said no, and that God would save him, the policeman called the coast guard and they sent a boat to try and rescue him, but he was adamant that God would save him. The weather was becoming increasingly worse, and the flood waters were rising. The Air Sea Rescue Helicopter was despatched to winch him to safety, and he would still not leave his house, stating that God would save him!

He drowned at 2.a.m. the next morning.

When he got to heaven, he asked God why he hadn't saved him from the flood, to which God replied

"Well I sent a Policeman, a Lifeboat and a Helicopter, what more could I do"

I believe that there is such a thing as Fate, and there are dimensions we can not comprehend, I would like to think that someone "up there" is looking out for me. As an intelligent person I can not prove this, or argue with any science or reason why this should be, but sometimes I think it's ok to just believe, and have faith.

Religion is a construct of society to form rules and demand civil obedience based on peoples primal fears, and as such I am out.

[indy]

I believe that everyone should be entitled to have their beliefs without fear of being persecuted or ridiculed. One should not belittle someone else's beliefs just because they do not believe the same thing. One should believe whatever helps them through their life journey. In my mind there is no right or wrong, if the bible is a story book as some say then let it be, if it is the gospel truth as others say then let it be. Religion and beliefs are individual to each person

[gregorach]

I believe that everyone should be entitled to have their beliefs without fear of being persecuted or ridiculed. One should not belittle someone else's beliefs just because they do not believe the same thing. One should believe whatever helps them through their life journey. In my mind there is no right or wrong, if the bible is a story book as some say then let it be, if it is the gospel truth as others say then let it be. Religion and beliefs are individual to each person

That's all very well as long as people keep their beliefs to themselves, but sadly, a great many of them seem to have an irresistible urge to try and foist them on other people. Once you start getting into the business of what gets taught in schools, who's allowed to marry whom, or who gets stoned to death for what, then I'm afraid I can't take this sort of ecumenical approach very seriously. Beliefs matter because people act on them.

[JuzaMum]

How do we know which science is right? A lot of scientific research is sponsored by industry making it biased. I read an article about some scientific research by the dairy industry which proved the benefits of milk. They took two groups of poor malnourished children, gave one lot a pint of milk a day and the other nothing extra. At the end of the study period the children given milk were healthier and heavier than their milkless peers. There was the 'scientific' proof of the benefits of cows milk. Of course you could prove the health benefits of Mc Happy Meals the same way Sorry I don't have any links - I read it a while ago.
Some science is just theoretical - anyone checked how far away the stars are?
I know homeopathic teething powders soothe my fretful baby and she is far too young for the placebo effect to work. I don't know how they work but my experience tells my they do. (She is my fourth child I have used them on)
I guess like many people the science I believe is what fits in with my world and my beliefs.
God doesn't fit into my world but I have no problem with peoples own personal quiet beliefs.

JuzaMum

[demi]

I believe that everyone should be entitled to have their beliefs without fear of being persecuted or ridiculed. One should not belittle someone else's beliefs just because they do not believe the same thing. One should believe whatever helps them through their life journey. In my mind there is no right or wrong, if the bible is a story book as some say then let it be, if it is the gospel truth as others say then let it be. Religion and beliefs are individual to each person

That's all very well as long as people keep their beliefs to themselves, but sadly, a great many of them seem to have an irresistible urge to try and foist them on other people. Once you start getting into the business of what gets taught in schools, who's allowed to marry whom, or who gets stoned to death for what, then I'm afraid I can't take this sort of ecumenical approach very seriously. Beliefs matter because people act on them.

yeah, take 9.11 for example.

[Susie]

There was an article in the Guardian yesterday about a new heathen manifesto: I thought it was interesting because, I must admit, the people who want to tell you in every context How Religion Is Stupid And No Intelligent Person Can Believe In It In Any Way have exactly the same effect on me as people shouting at me in the street about how I Must Find Jesus Or Else I'm Going Straight To Hell. I just turn off and do my thing.

(I'm a hedgewitch).

[indy]

I believe that everyone should be entitled to have their beliefs without fear of being persecuted or ridiculed. One should not belittle someone else's beliefs just because they do not believe the same thing. One should believe whatever helps them through their life journey. In my mind there is no right or wrong, if the bible is a story book as some say then let it be, if it is the gospel truth as others say then let it be. Religion and beliefs are individual to each person

That's all very well as long as people keep their beliefs to themselves, but sadly, a great many of them seem to have an irresistible urge to try and foist them on other people. Once you start getting into the business of what gets taught in schools, who's allowed to marry whom, or who gets stoned to death for what, then I'm afraid I can't take this sort of ecumenical approach very seriously. Beliefs matter because people act on them.

Fair point, Naive though I may sound I was answering the question when thinking about the way I live my life. I concede that how people act upon those beliefs is indicative of the state the world is in today.
yeah, take 9.11 for example.

[indy]

There was an article in the Guardian yesterday about a new heathen manifesto: I thought it was interesting because, I must admit, the people who want to tell you in every context How Religion Is Stupid And No Intelligent Person Can Believe In It In Any Way have exactly the same effect on me as people shouting at me in the street about how I Must Find Jesus Or Else I'm Going Straight To Hell. I just turn off and do my thing.

(I'm a hedgewitch).

You said it much better than I

[JuzaMum]

I believe that everyone should be entitled to have their beliefs without fear of being persecuted or ridiculed. One should not belittle someone else's beliefs just because they do not believe the same thing. One should believe whatever helps them through their life journey. In my mind there is no right or wrong, if the bible is a story book as some say then let it be, if it is the gospel truth as others say then let it be. Religion and beliefs are individual to each person

That's all very well as long as people keep their beliefs to themselves, but sadly, a great many of them seem to have an irresistible urge to try and foist them on other people. Once you start getting into the business of what gets taught in schools, who's allowed to marry whom, or who gets stoned to death for what, then I'm afraid I can't take this sort of ecumenical approach very seriously. Beliefs matter because people act on them.

yeah, take 9.11 for example.

How do we know the attacks on the twin towers on 9/11 were religiously motivated - we can hardly ask the pilots. We only know what the media tells us and theres are a lot of political issues there.
Who knows what to believe on that one.

Juzamum

[indy]

thats true

[gregorach]

Some science is just theoretical - anyone checked how far away the stars are?

Actually, yes - you use parallax (which is just geometry) to establish your first baseline, and then you use Cephid variables (which have a well-established relationship between their luminosity and their period, discovered via parallax measurements) and Type 1a supernovae (which have a known luminosity set by the laws of nuclear physics) based on that to calibrate out far enough for the Hubble constant to become useful, and then it's red-shifts (general relativity, proven in hundreds of ways) all the way out to the edge of the observable universe. It's all solid stuff - every bit as solid as the science which makes the computer you're using to post on this forum work.

"Theoretical" doesn't mean "we're just making it up". Technically, it's only "theoretical" that the Sun will rise in the East tomorrow.

I know homeopathic teething powders soothe my fretful baby and she is far too young for the placebo effect to work. I don't know how they work but my experience tells my they do. (She is my fourth child I have used them on)

The placebo effect works on you - you're the person assessing its effectiveness, and your baby responds to your emotional state, so there at least two mechanisms there whereby the placebo effect can appear to have an effect on babies. (Or animals.)