Selfsufficientish.com

There were no chains, S&M dog training? Never!

Susie I am glad you now realise the error of your ways, I can recommend.... no I can't without going all Mrs Slowcombe.

40,000 years we have been domesticating dogs, it just said it on the one show, thats a while.

Mind you, this is going to open the floodgates. When that dance troupe won a couple of years back, the following year there were dozens of bloody street dance act on the show. Next year I predict not only dogs but cats being forced (with great reluctance) to jump through flaming hoops; goats clambering ever higher up precarious piles of furniture*; gerbils on roller skates and budgerigars whistling the theme from "Hawaii 5-0."

It's going to get really, really, ugly.


* These two are staples of French rural circuses - I know whence I speak.

Susie wrote:I do think there's an argument that doing anything with animals that isn't their natural behaviour (e.g. keeping them as pets) oppresses them (I can't think of a word other than oppresses and I know it makes me sound like a terrible left wing parody, so, although I probably am a terrible left wing parody, I want you to know I do realise it ;-) ). I'm not saying it's an argument I'm particularly going to defend but I do think there is an argument, although obvs the domestic vs dolphins argument is valid.

See, I totally understand that way of thinking. I probably would have taken him a little more seriously if the guy who said it didn't have a pet dog. Another woman said Border Collies should only be used for herding, not be had as pets. So what are we supposed to do with all these excess working dogs? Just let them all out to the wild, neuter them all and wait for the different breeds to die out? Put them all to sleep? Lots of loving owners shouting, "Git! Go on! We don't want you any more!" whilst throwing stuff at them?

Disclaimer: Those were just ramblings, not particularly aimed at Susie.

Riff-Raff - I'm sure they've had the bird one on Britain's Got Talent before ;)

OK,I've changed my address,put on a tinhat,and I'm in the bunker already.........(and though I don't see the relevance,it's probably coming so far from the left,it's almost far right)............but I hate anthropomorphism,that ,for me,TRULY degrades animals.

Anthropomorphists have rights too!!

Mike

oldjerry wrote:OK,I've changed my address,put on a tinhat,and I'm in the bunker already.........(and though I don't see the relevance,it's probably coming so far from the left,it's almost far right)............but I hate anthropomorphism,that ,for me,TRULY degrades animals.

But Watership Down, and Alice in Wonderland, and so many great things that anthropomorphise animals. Is it Johnny Morris's fault?

Its important to remember though that those books are, from an animal understanding point of view, utter twaddle. Animals are animals. If we shouldn't interfere with their nature, are supposed to allow rats in our food, flies on out meat and or dogs to bite us as they try to assert a position in the pack? Thats what their nature dictates they should do. Should bulls be allowed to roam free and charge people they see as threats? What about microbial life? Should we let smallpox do its thing? Why is one lifeform allowed to follow its natural instincts and others stopped - or killed - for doing so.

The whole of this small island is a manmade or at least man altered landscape. We have made it so and we hold it stewardship. However having taken on the mantle of stewardship, we must live up to it. This means animals, both wild and domestic, must be constrained, controlled and their behaviour and numbers must be managed. Those who think otherwise have probably never seen wild deer die of starvation in a hard winter from over breeding and lack of natural predators since man killed off the wolves that would have given the old, weak and sick a faster kinder death. For that matter not controlling the behaviour of dogs leads to fields full of mauled and aborting ewes.

My position is that we have not only the right, but the responsibility to manage and control animals and animal populations.

oldjerry wrote:but I hate anthropomorphism,that ,for me,TRULY degrades animals.

How are you on furries, though? That's the burning question.

Not a problem,I'd torch them all...

I really want to respond to some of the comments but I really do not want to offend. I feel so strongly about some issues that I fear I will come over as a bit "direct" and personal. What I really really want to do is inform. So please be gentle when you respond
Gregorach wrote Dogs are domestic animals who have been bred specifically to please humans for millennia. I went to a symposium recently, there was a number of speakers. One of whom posed the question “ did we domesticate the dog or did the dog choose us”?

2nd point I apologise for introducing “far left friends” into the discussion. I think I was trying to use shorthand for radical/ read outrageously controversial. It really did not add or help in the way I meant it to, I was trying to understand the person who had originally made negative comments on the face book topic. I certainly could see lots of the people I know getting very upset about it. There are many that disapprove of guide dogs (why should a dog be a servant to any person).

Boboff I would not wish to offend but yours was the first occasion (in this topic) which still indicates a belief in the myth of Alpha domination etc. This general misunderstanding has been covered many times by a range of organisations. But to simplify this particular post the dog is not doing what the alpha wants- he is coming from a “what’s in it for me” angle as it happens his positive re-enforcement may well just be the cuddles. Which brings me back to the question did the face book disapprover think that the dog had been trained with negative re-enforcement?

Oldjerry -See what you’ve done now? With your starting the anthropomorphism reference!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcJxRqTs5nk

Sorry Red squirrel I just need to address this one point you made.
“dogs to bite us as they try to assert a position in the pack? Thats what their nature dictates they should do”. ( see response to Boboff)
However I wholeheartedly agree with your closing statement “My position is that we have not only the right, but the responsibility to manage and control animals and animal populations.”
My only caveat is that some people interpret that into meaning they have power not responsibility.

Ha Ha just off to work and wont be able to read any replies until tomorrow.xx

Trinder smells of wee wee!

Anyway, I don't agree with you, dogs, as do humans to an extent, want to fit into the pack structure.

I don't really mind you don't agree, and I may be wrong, but personally thats what I feel is best for the dog, and the child!

To say this is wrong purely because of an obvious desire to gain rewards on the dogs part, I find a tadge simplistic. Surely the point of the "alpha" is to provide/defend/keepwarm and safe, or else exactly what is in it for anyone?

boboff wrote:Anyway, I don't agree with you, dogs, as do humans to an extent, want to fit into the pack structure.

Speak for yourself..

Boboff love you sooo much cos you are such a k**b x

Anyway, I don't agree with you, dogs, as do humans to an extent, want to fit into the pack structure.

nothing I would disagree with on that statement.

"I don't really mind you don't agree, and I may be wrong, but personally thats what I feel is best for the dog, and the child!"
I absolutely agree with that but the problem is with this Alpha domination crap.

Dad's and wolves and lots of other creatures have their own best interest genetically programmed to increase the life expectancy of their genetic offspring. ergo "I absolutely want you to learn this it is vital to your survival" is the most important message but how it is delivered is the key. Through teaching by encouraging learning (+re) the adult encourages the offspring to learn - the offspring is engaged in the learning active, positive, excited, wanting.
But the adult must measure this positive "can do" attitude with a realisation that " to go blundering ahead when I (dad) am being cautious is frivolous and could cost you your life" this is where some of the knowledgeable people have added the stuff about measured fear and respect . If you don't respect me you won't learn from me etc.
I fear that when you loosely refer to ALPHA domination some people will conjure up an image of fear and control instead of leadership and respect.


To say this is wrong purely because of an obvious desire to gain rewards on the dogs part, I find a tadge simplistic. Surely the point of the "alpha" is to provide/defend/keepwarm and safe, or else exactly what is in it for anyone?

Yes I knew I would not get away with this one but only you would go for the jugular xx I can't wait for the annual get together cos I know what you look like and you just wont see me commin only kiddin

did anyone go to the link? any comments feedback?

Well, Trinder's comments made me go and look up the latest on Alpha dominance - and it appears that Trinder's right (thanks for that, it was interesting).

It still doesn't alter the fact the Pudsey is an obviously well-loved dog whose stress factor hovers around the nil mark.

Mike

Trinders' Funny!

You can come up to the Alpha's cave tonight!