Councils and wind power

[Stonehead]

Now I happen to think some sort of control over small-scale wind power is necessary or we'll end up with double-glazing all over again - dodgy rubbish being shoved in any old where.

However, it's about time someone cracked a few heads together on councils.

There was a story in the Press and Journal about a pensioner who wanted to put a wind turbine in. Leaving aside the merits of his choice, what's interesting is what you need to do to get Aberdeenshire Council just to consider it.

You have to fill in eight separate documents, each of multiple pages, and commission a number of studies - at your expense.

You have to notify all your neighbours (reasonable enough), carry out a noise study for your environs, commission architectural drawings (in this case from 15 different elevations), do a parking study (why?), do an environmental impact assessment and so on.

There's a real clash looming here - we have various neighbours who've seen those TV ads and think they can just go and buy a wind turbine, then put it up. They're amazed when I tell them they'll need planning permission like they would for an extension to their house.

What's really needed is a simplified process that can quickly assess whether the proposed turbine is actually beneficial or not, whether it can be safely and securely mounted in a close to optimum location, and whether it's a turbine that actually does what it says on the tin. Most of the rest is just garbage.

[baldowrie]

not a wind turbine but when I lived in Stirling I wanted to put up solar panels to run my bore hole pump. I asked the council if this could be done and their answer was NO! Your neighbours don't have any and it would be out of keeping!

I lived in the middle of no where, I had 2 neighbours

How can we become more green if the councils continually put a block on it?

[Martin]

sounds to me like your council needs a good boot up the bum!
It varies a heck of a lot by area, in our area most planners actually want to see them used in the right areas, and are genuinely helpful - sounds like a letter to the local MP job to me!
Despite the fact that I sell them, I don't want to see them erected in unsuitable spots, either where they just plain won't work, or will present a nuisance to neighbours - there should be a simplification and clarification of the process, and it should be nationwide!
I have heard from a very good source that a certain provider of roof-mounted turbines has "been in discussion" with Trading Standards, following a barrage of complaints - for once it seems that the "powers that be" are actually trying to sort this mess out!
I think that things will ease shortly, there is enormous pressure on planners to allow suitable schemes, and concerted pressure from everyone concerned should get things moving (touch of the senna pods! )

[Martin]

where angels fear to tread!
Just had a natter with someone in planning in Aberdeenshire! I explained that as a company, we have had several enquiries from their area, but had been disappointed to note that their council seemed to be putting an awful lot of unnecessary hurdles in people's way who want to have a wind turbine.
The reply was that a lot of "standard letters" were sent out as a matter of course, applicable to the larger turbines (car parks etc.), and that they were receiving applications consisting of a dot on a map! - I agree that the application should give planners a good idea of what they are going to look like when erected on the site, and received a favourable reply when I suggested "how about 4 images of the site, with the turbine photoshopped in" - they seemed to think that was good idea, and suggested that a "planning pack" from the turbine manufacturer would also be of great help. They also intimated that the whole situation regarding planning consent is due to alter next year, and even suggested that in many cases, small turbines may not need consent then (sic)
So, next stop for me is to hassle the company who provides most of our turbines for comprehensive planning packs!
So, if you're keen, go for it! - and don't take any nonsense! :wink

[Stonehead]

where angels fear to tread!
Just had a natter with someone in planning in Aberdeenshire! I explained that as a company, we have had several enquiries from their area, but had been disappointed to note that their council seemed to be putting an awful lot of unnecessary hurdles in people's way who want to have a wind turbine.
The reply was that a lot of "standard letters" were sent out as a matter of course, applicable to the larger turbines (car parks etc.), and that they were receiving applications consisting of a dot on a map! - I agree that the application should give planners a good idea of what they are going to look like when erected on the site, and received a favourable reply when I suggested "how about 4 images of the site, with the turbine photoshopped in" - they seemed to think that was good idea, and suggested that a "planning pack" from the turbine manufacturer would also be of great help. They also intimated that the whole situation regarding planning consent is due to alter next year, and even suggested that in many cases, small turbines may not need consent then (sic)
So, next stop for me is to hassle the company who provides most of our turbines for comprehensive planning packs!
So, if you're keen, go for it! - and don't take any nonsense! :wink

Thanks. It's funny how their attitude changes when they talk to businesses and not residents! I've been having communications with them for yonks over this and other issues, as have my neighbours, and they don't like dealing with the average joe bloggs (well, I'm probably not but you get the idea).

I do worry about open slather on small turbines, though. At the very least, they should have something like what you mention as a way of curbing cowboys and getting real benefits. People should have to submit a fairly simple application with photos, details of the turbine and its installation, details of other eco-friendly improvements to their house, and details of their energy consumption.

Then the council can say "micro-turbine on lime-mortared gable wall, no way", "turbine mast right next to a tree-line with eagle nest, no way", "good spot, good turbine, maybe, but get your insulation and double-glazing sorted first", "good spot, good turbine, good insulation but you're still using way too much energy. Show us a good energy reducation plan, implement it for a year and if you've achieved the target, then yes you can have a turbine".

I'd happily accept something like that.

[Martin]

Just had a chat with the Scots lib dems, VERY supportive!
For anyone in the area, it is suggested they contact Katy Watt on 01330-820268, to voice their concerns, she is the MSPs caseworker for Mike Rumbles

[Stonehead]

Oh, and here's an email I sent to my LibDem MSP...

I've been watching with interest the debate about micro and small-scale wind turbines, and about the pressure to ease the planning controls on them.

While initially in favour of ditching most planning controls over them, my own research into turbines and hence exposure to their marketing would suggest that while controls definitely need to be eased (as I've found in my dealings with Aberdeenshire Council), there also needs to be a fairly rigorous but simple means of control.

First, it's quite clear that some of the turbine manufacturers are not prepared to back up their marketing claims by making available real-world data on the outputs achieved by their turbines. They're also not prepared to make access available to pilot and demonstration projects.

Then it's also quite clear that while some marketing may imply micro and small-scale wind turbines can be installed anywhere, the reality is quite different. Our croft house is built of stone with lime mortar and it's now clear that mounting a wind turbine on this structure would be inviting eventual damage to the building, particularly given the extreme wind speeds we experience here (87mph peak gust during last Thursday's gales, for example).

Even if the turbine is mounted on a mast away from the building, there needs to be some consideration for the environment, including wildlife habitats, and, in some cases, noise impact on neighbours - particularly in more built-up areas.

And then there is the need for the turbine to make a genuine impact on energy consumption. There seems little point in allowing people to put in turbines if they are simply going to consume the same amount (or more) energy as before.

So, I thought I'd contact you to propose a few suggestions that could be considered when deciding how to change planning controls over micro and small wind turbines.

While the presumption would be that small-scale turbines are acceptable and indeed necessary, people planning to install a wind turbine should have to submit a fairly basic preliminary planning pack to the council.

The pack should provide details of the specific turbine, its primary proposed installation site and a couple of secondaries, details of the theoretical energy output in those locations (using at least the DTI wind speeds, but preferably with actual figures as well), photos of the site with the turbine superimposed to scale (easy to do in Photoshop etc), details of existing "green" improvements to the structure that will utilise the electricity, and details of annual energy consumption by that structure/household.

Should the proposed installation pass all those checks, it could be installed quite quickly.

But, if someone proposed a wind turbine mounted on, say, a gable wall of a house the council could ask for an engineering assessment. Properly guyed and anchored masts or fitting to steel-framed industrial/agricultural buildings could be the accepted norm, for instance.

If the turbine did not generate sufficient electricity over a given time frame (so it was carbon negative and not neutral or positive) then it would be rejected.

If there were wildlife habitats nearby, then it could be either rejected or further assessed.

If it was in a built-up area, it could be sent for noise assessment and further wind analysis. If in a more rural area, it should be enough to show on a map that either there is no-one living within, for argument's sake, 200 metres of the turbine or that they have indicated in writing that they are aware of the noise level and have no objection to it. (Companies should be able to build a demonstration trailer, like a lighting tower, that could be towed on site, erected and used for a couple of days so neighbours could see and hear it.)

If the structure utilising the energy could be further insulated, draft-proofed or made more carbon neutral first, then the application could be rejected until other improvements were made, eg insulating, fitting high-efficiency solar hot water, etc. This needs to be within reason - so no demanding gas-fired condensing central heating boilers for people in rural areas where gas is both expensive and non-renewable instead of existing solid fuel systems that use renewable resources.

If the energy consumption of the structure/household was well above average or, better still, a set target for that type of use, then the application would be put on hold for a 18 months while an energy conservation plan was put together, submitted, implemented and then assessed.

The more I read about wind turbines, the more marketing and advertising I see, and the more naivety I come across, the more I worry that wind turbines will be used by cowboys in the same way that double-glazing has been. At the same time, wind turbines should also not be seen as just a means for energy hogs to get away with their current excesses.

[Stonehead]

Just had a chat with the Scots lib dems, VERY supportive!
For anyone in the area, it is suggested they contact Katy Watt on 01330-820268, to voice their concerns, she is the MSPs caseworker for Mike Rumbles

I've tried the Greens, but their Aberdeen/Aberdeenshire branch seems to focus almost exclusively on the Aberdeen bypass. I completely understand being a single-issue environmental political party, but I think that's a bit too narrow a focus!

And what happens when the bypass is rejected (unlikely, but one can live in hope) or built. Where do you go then?

[Martin]

well put! - I think that if enough people have a good squawk at the powers that be, something approaching sense will prevail! - being the cynic I am, they're all jostling to earn "green brownie points", and any reasonable requests should fall on receptive ears!

[nathanbriggs]

I have heard from a very good source that a certain provider of roof-mounted turbines has "been in discussion" with Trading Standards, following a barrage of complaints - for once it seems that the "powers that be" are actually trying to sort this mess out!

There were 6 complaints Martin hardly a "barrage" and the main one was from YOU!

On the planning thing, currently you don't need "permission" to mount a turbine within 2m of your roof peak less than 2.1m dia. However if a neighbour or interested party complains the Council can enforce a "retro-active" planning permission which could effectively force you to take it down. Current best practise therefore is to apply for permission first. If you get the run around/ too onerous a process complain like hell and the tide is slowly turning.

The good news is that the microgeneration bill has royal assent and the ODPM is currently converting it into legislation. Best possible outcome from that would be no permission required up to 4m from roofline at 2.1m dia but until the draft comes out its all down to "interpretation"

[Martin]

but is this blessed bill going to make it any easier for people to gain consent for real mast-mounted turbines? - or is it just for "roof mounting"

[nathanbriggs]

not sure, but if you join the micropower council you could lobby for changes you want :lol

seriously the legislation should make all microgeneration planning easier by setting low end limits on what doesn't need permission, however a very tall mast or one that can be easily seen by neighbours will always need their consent

[Shirley]

I thought this might be of interest - HOUSEHOLDERS are to be handed the freedom to put up wind turbines and solar panels without planning permission in a move which could transform the skyline of Edinburgh.

[Martin]