Prices people can actually afford

[Lord Azrael]

Just a thought here.
I'm sure I'm not the only one on the forum who would love a solar heating system for their water or a turbine that can actually power something, but can't afford it.
£2,000 for a system is phenomenal, and far out of my range.
Apart from the obvious environmental benefit, the ability to save money by installing these features would be fantastic, but you need to be rich already to save money, and those of us who can't afford them end up paying high prices all the time by having to rely on non-green sources. (although I am on Hydro-Electric which is ok)

I know this is the case with most things in life, and it's certainly not a dig at anyone here that is fortunate enough to have them, but I do feel that if the government wants to make a really pro-active attempt to make the place greener and save resources, then these systems need to be seriously reduced in price!! Does anyone know exactly what a standard water heating system contains and how much it actually costs to produce? Are the companies making huge profits on these or are they just expensive items anyway?

Good example, Not Easy Being Green the other night. The people building the big house had a turbine installed...at £42,000 !!!!!!
That's over 3 years wages for me before deductions!

So, rant over, what's the solution? Are there reasonably priced items out there that actually perform well? Maybe we could have a round up of systems and see what you actually get for your money. ie what sort of actual power output from wind or solar would be required to power an average household and what do you really need to pay to provide this?

Sorry for rambling on, hopefully it will be a constructive thought process.....

[Cornelian]

Lots of people in Australia would love to go completely solar powered ... but for us that would cost something like $30,000 for the average house (perhaps about £12,000). Who has that kind of money lying about? (I can't even bear to think about wind turbine! ) The government has recently announced that they will double the grant to people going solar to $8,000, which is a help, but you still need to find an extra $20,000 and again, the average person just doesn't have that.

You also have to ask (cynical me) why governments don't want people to go solar (if they did they'd be doing a great deal more) ... does too much of their revenue come from traditional fuel sources, perhaps?

I think more money needs to be invested in research and development - and the cost just has to be brought down.

[Wombat]

a little bit off topic, but if you're an Aussie you might find this funny!

Johnny and the Donkey

A young man named Johnny bought a donkey from a farmer for $100. The farmer agreed to deliver the donkey the next day.

When the farmer drove up the next day, he said, "Sorry son, I have some bad news. The donkey is on my truck, but I'm afraid he's dead."

Johnny replied, "Well then, just give me my money back."

The farmer said, "I can't do that. I went and spent it already."

Johnny said, "Just unload the donkey anyway."

The farmer asked, "What are you going to do with him?"

Johnny said, "I'm going to raffle him off."

The farmer exclaimed, "You can't raffle off a dead donkey!"

But Johnny, with a big smile on his face, said "O yes I can. Watch me. I just won't tell anybody that he's dead."

A month later the farmer met up with Johnny and asked, "What happened with that dead donkey?"

Johnny said, "I raffled him off. I sold 500 tickets at two dollars a piece and made a profit of $798.00."

Totally amazed, the farmer asked, "Didn't anyone complain that you had stolen their money because you lied about the donkey being dead?"

Johnny replied, "The only guy who found out about the donkey being dead was the raffle winner, when he came to claim his prize. So I gave him his $2 back plus $200 extra, which is double the going value of a donkey, so he thought I was a really great guy."

Johnny grew up and eventually became the Prime Minister of Australia, and no matter how many times he lied or how much money he took from Aussie voters, as long as he gave them back some of the money, most of them thought he was a great guy.


Nev

[Jack]

Gidday

Now that's real Aussie Eh!

[Wombat]

Up yours Jack!

[camillitech]

it is a dilema and i don't know what the answer is. we have a proven turbine and yes it was an arm and a leg and we borrowed alot of money to pay for it i visited the factory on several occaisions and saw no flash cars or fancy offices. however i did see alot of ordinary people actually making things. unfortunatly these days the only way to make things cheaply is to do it on the other side of the world where wages are a pittance and control on pollution is not as strict

this is just an observation, i'm as guilty as the next person though i do try and buy stuff that's not been shipped halfway round the planet but in this era of globalisation it's only a token gesture

[contadino]

You could build yourself a solar hot water system based on an old radiator...

Or build yourself a wind turbine using a 12vdc motor, or an old car alternator...

Neither of these ideas are new. People do it all the time, and I've yet to encounter one who is not pleasantly surprised by the performance of their creations.

Here in Italy, you can get a EUR 600 grant for installing a solar hot water system. You have to apply for the grant using a registered 'geometra' or technician - and the fee for getting one to fill in the paperwork? Typically EUR 600. If you want to benefit from these things, you just have to learn how to do it, and implement it yourself. And a little tip, if you're in a plumbers yard, asking for simple things like valves, never ever tell them it's for a solar water system. The price will double before you finish your sentence.

[OurEcoHouse]

Just a thought here.
I'm sure I'm not the only one on the forum who would love a solar heating system for their water or a turbine that can actually power something, but can't afford it.
£2,000 for a system is phenomenal, and far out of my range.
Apart from the obvious environmental benefit, the ability to save money by installing these features would be fantastic, but you need to be rich already to save money, and those of us who can't afford them end up paying high prices all the time by having to rely on non-green sources. (although I am on Hydro-Electric which is ok)

I know this is the case with most things in life, and it's certainly not a dig at anyone here that is fortunate enough to have them, but I do feel that if the government wants to make a really pro-active attempt to make the place greener and save resources, then these systems need to be seriously reduced in price!! Does anyone know exactly what a standard water heating system contains and how much it actually costs to produce? Are the companies making huge profits on these or are they just expensive items anyway?

Good example, Not Easy Being Green the other night. The people building the big house had a turbine installed...at £42,000 !!!!!!
That's over 3 years wages for me before deductions!

So, rant over, what's the solution? Are there reasonably priced items out there that actually perform well? Maybe we could have a round up of systems and see what you actually get for your money. ie what sort of actual power output from wind or solar would be required to power an average household and what do you really need to pay to provide this?

Sorry for rambling on, hopefully it will be a constructive thought process.....

This is exactly why we have started OurEcoHouse.info. To support those who would like to switch to renewables but cannot afford it.

[catalyst]

I went to sleep thinking about all this last night. And i may have come up with possible solutions (at least for some people).

Firstly, OurEcoHouse, I really like your idea. But, i got to thinking about it. Your plan is to raise a million and then give 40 people 10,000 each for eco projects. A great idea, as i said, and your notion of using advertising budgets of businesses is even better, as this is tax deductible to those businesses and so costs them nowt.

But, I thought what if they put this 400,000 into a fund to offer interest free loans. As the money is paid back it can be re-lent to others.

Then i was thinking about the fact that eveyone who wants renewable energy systems ALREADY pays every month for electric bills. Surely loans could be arranged that would enable houses to have panels, wind turbines etc installed, and the home-owner pays back each month exactly what they were paying before for electric. On sunny days, they might even be able to sell back to the grid, to raise some money towards paying back the loan.

One idea is that we set up a credit union (the 400,000 could be the seed capital?). Another is that we approach banks and building societies, to get a list of organisations open to the idea of given loans pegged to the (previous) electric bills. I reckon Ecology building society would go for it, at least.
Another idea is that individual home owners try to convince their mortgage companies of the idea, and increase their mortgages to buy the goods. You could even negotiate lower repayment terms than you now pay, in some cases.

I often get ideas like this in my sleep, but often they are also half-baked, so i need to know what people think. Feedback anyone ?

[mikul101]

You could build yourself a solar hot water system based on an old radiator...

Or build yourself a wind turbine using a 12vdc motor, or an old car alternator...

Neither of these ideas are new. People do it all the time, and I've yet to encounter one who is not pleasantly surprised by the performance of their creations.

Contadino could you point me in the right direction for sources of information on the specific projects you mention above. I would love to try building my own solar hot water system and wind turbine but I need to gather information and examples before I can start.

[revdode]

Hugh Piggot (Scoriag wind power) has written some good books on the subject of DIY medium tech wind turbines and runs courses. The Centre for Alternative Technology have some factsheets, books and I think run courses on DIY hot water systems. I think also the Low Impact Living Initiative also offer courses on one or other of these subjects.

[contadino]

For wind power I'd recommend the otherpower website as a good starting point. For solar, probably the It's Not Easy Being Green forum - there's extensive threads on build-your-own solar hot water systems.

Overall, I'd have a read through some of the articles on reuk.co.uk for solar hot water, wind power and PV systems.

Apologies, I'm using the wife's computer at the mo so don't have quick access to the proper URLs.

[Thomzo]

Retro fitting will probably always be an expensive option. If you already have a perfectly good central heating/hot water system then the cost of adding a solar powered one will be quite expensive.

One way is for the government to insist that all new houses have various things fitted as standard. They did it in this country with double glazing a few years ago and it worked. If there is a large market for these items from the new house builders it will encourage more manufacturers into the market which will, in the longer term, drive the prices down.

My only suggestion is to wait until you need to replace your existing boiler and then fit a solar system.

Zoe