chocolate

[Clara]

I tend to think, 'We need to support farmers in developing countries,' is a big, fat euphemism for, 'We'd like to move into places with cheap labour and fewer regulations to produce cash crops at low cost for the Western market, turn local communities away from self-sufficiency and lock them into working for wages (and buying food) and then look like we're helping them because the money from exporting asparagus gets counted in the GDP whereas subsistence farming, aquifer depletion and the fact that the workers are being exposed to noxious chemicals don't appear on anyone's balance sheet.'

And whilst I was typing my post, Hamster said it all the more elegantly......

[red]

I don't know where I stand on this issue more generally. On the one hand, I tend to think, 'We need to support farmers in developing countries,' is a big, fat euphemism for, 'We'd like to move into places with cheap labour and fewer regulations to produce cash crops at low cost for the Western market, turn local communities away from self-sufficiency and lock them into working for wages (and buying food) and then look like we're helping them because the money from exporting asparagus gets counted in the GDP whereas subsistence farming, aquifer depletion and the fact that the workers are being exposed to noxious chemicals don't appear on anyone's balance sheet.'.

here I think you have to separate the likes of cocacola moving into a poorer country.. so it can have cheap labour.. steal all the water and poison the land - and crops of food, grown by farmers and the community, that are suited to the local climate.
and also, as you say, there is a huge difference between crops that just dont grow here. and out of season stuff.

[Annpan]

Clara, I think the phrase 'short term difficulties in abandoning trade' is a huge understatement. Surely the best way to go is to support fairtrade, we cannot expect any of these countries* to repair themselves, and they certainly would never be comparable to the standards of living we are accustomed to......

1. I don´t actually believe that global trade either has as its stated purpose or accidental outcome the ability to achieve this....if they did start to have "our standards of living" then they would probably want annoying things like a western wage and working conditions, which would contradict the whole reason trade is done with far flung countries instead of working with what we have available on our own landbase.

2. If the rest of the world lived and consumed like the "developed" western minority, we would be looking at collapse far far quicker than we are at present.

3. I suspect what would actually happen is they would survive just fine as they turn their monocropped land back to arable use, stop spraying pesticides (google "chocolate" and "lindane") and provide their own food and clothing locally. In truth, it would be us who would be screwed because our current consumption far exceeds the capacity of our landbase

Take rice as an example. Their is a world shortage, I´m sure you´ve read about it. People are going to starve in countries for want of their basic food, but the available rice will be exported (except from those countries sensible enough to have put in place emergency measures to prevent this), because you and I will always be able to outbid a citizen of one of these countries for rice. Now, if we stopped buying rice, people wouldn´t starve to death, quite the contrary.

I agree with most of what you say, and I wasn't suggesting for a minute that we either continue our consumption at current rates, or continue the use of non-Fairtrade products and when talking of 'standards of living' I ought to have specified... safe drinking water, education, infrastructure, an appropriate government system. (I wasn't talking washing machines and disposable cutlery you understand)

The rice problem that you talk about is a separate issue as it relates to a crop that is grown for the local population being shipped to feed us fattys in the west. I do think that the countries in question should not be exporting the rice (whether the government steps in or whatever)

I am talking about co-operatives of farmers who are able to sell their cocoa to fund the local community, the government of that country should be able to charge taxes (from the western purchasers) to help fund health, education and infrastructure in that country.

The thing is that we spend millions on aid to these countries which all to often ends up in the hands of some corrupt official... I am happier giving my money to a company which helps their local community and helps people help themselves.

I also believe that we are now a world community and as long as a country can and is willing to export goods which another country is willing to buy.



All of what I say assumes that
A - we are talking fairtrade standards.
B - we are talking organic standards.
C - we are talking sustainable transportation methods.
D - we are talking about products which can not be produced locally.

Hamster I think that the problem with the 'equitrade' is that the EU imposes huge tariffs on certain finished products, which is ridiculous and stops raw materials from being processed near the source.

[red]

I think it's really important that communities are self-sustaining in the essentials, but we had sugar in Britain from around the 11th century and in the 18th century 2 cups of tea a day was a standard part of servants' wage agreements, and while I'm not pretending trade in the 18th century at least was likely to be particularly equitable, it is theoretically possible for trade in these things to exist without cheap oil, air-freight or intensive agriculture. The question for me is how rather than if it's done, I think.

and back in those times how it was done was often with slave labour.

to add to the debate - we can produce our own sugar here in Britain. Silver spoon sugar is made from British sugar beet. *but* it is grown with heavy use of chemicals. sugar beet only takes one refining process, whereas cane sugar take 2
which is better? importing from potentially unfair trade, poor work conditions etc and using oil to get it here.. or heavy use of chemicals to produce at home? we are critised for subsidising certain crops.. but that is the only way if you want the prices to be comparible. of course the answer is give up sugar. and with it.. home made wine/jam/ pickles etc etc
sugar has a lot to answer for: diabetes, tooth rot, obesity - but giving it up completely is a huge thing to do. and before anyone says 'honey', once again I point out that most honey is produced by stealing the honey (this would be the bees food store) and replacing it with sugar.

none of these decisions are simple.

[QuakerBear]

CoOp fan here.

Recently I've been embarasing Mr. QB and my little sister by going into Thorntons, sweet shops and choclote tasting stalls and asking very loudly where their Fair Trade chocolate is. I'm being a capitalist and creating demand.

[Annpan]

You might all find this very interesting, from a company that practices a different kind of Fairtrade.

[johnhcrf]

The Peruvian/Dominican Republic based communities paint a grim picture of low cocoa prices driven down by chocolate makers/superstores. Fairtrade chocolate would have to be promoted separately from this economic vice to be effective.

[Annpan]

Well, apart from you, Red , how often do you guys eat chocolate?

I eat it at Christmas and my birthday, Easter and maybe 1 or 2 other times during the year. That's all.

I'd eat it every week if I could but (1) it rots my teeth (2) it makes me fat (3) it makes me spotty and (4) it's just downright unhealthy and (5) it's expensive!

I think that I have about 10 or 12 bars of chocolate a year... some times I don't have any for months and I do get bars (or very occasionally boxes) for Valentines, birthday, Christmas, etc... oh and a 100g bar lasts more than a week (usually) I only have a few chunks at a time, which is why I prefer dark chocolate

G+B was my chocolate of choice, but I really didn't know where it came from... now I do, I'll probably avoid it in the future.

[ina]

I'll have to see where I can find Montezuma - don't think any of the shops I usually go to sells it; but it certainly looks a good deal.

And yes, I did buy G&B again yesterday... At the moment (to answer your question, MMM) I eat far too much chocolate and other sweets - the only good thing about lambing time is, you can eat what you like, and still lose weight! And I need the sugar to get me through the night shifts. Just have to make sure I stop eating all that once it's over.

[ocailleagh]

Well, in the interest of research (coughs), today being St. Giro's Day, I went a-shopping. On my list was fairtrade chocolate, my intention being to buy a few different types to compare and contrast. So, at T*sc* I bought a bar of Divine dark chocolate. The only other ethical looking one was by Seeds Of Change, and at nearly 4 times the price of the Divine at £1.99 (on offer), I decided to not buy it!
Next, to Lidl to try their fairtrade chocolate. Unfortunately their fairtrade section had gone. Disappointed, I attempted to leave. Only to be asked by some 12 year old till nazi to show them my bags! I've never been so insulted in my life. She claimed they were checking everyone's bags, yet didn't check my mother's bag, nor that of the woman in the queue behind us. So, needless to say, I didn't get to ask about their fairtrade section, and as I won't be giving them my business ever again, am unlikely to find out lol.
However, Divine chocolate is...well...divine! Much nicer texture than G&B's, silkier is the word I'd use. And with a slightly less bitter endnote, so the flavour is more rounded. Though I appreciate others may prefer more bitterness in a dark chocolate. And at 64p for a large bar is extraordinarily cheap! I also noticed that they are GM-free as well, though not organic, whch is a shame.

[mrsflibble]

Divine works better in cooking too.

[eccentric_emma]

Next, to Lidl to try their fairtrade chocolate. Unfortunately their fairtrade section had gone. Disappointed, I attempted to leave. Only to be asked by some 12 year old till nazi to show them my bags! I've never been so insulted in my life. She claimed they were checking everyone's bags, yet didn't check my mother's bag, nor that of the woman in the queue behind us. So, needless to say, I didn't get to ask about their fairtrade section, and as I won't be giving them my business ever again, am unlikely to find out lol.

I hate trying to leave Lidl's! every Lidl's I have been in is designed to 'force' you to buy something before you can leave! Once I actually had to ask the security guard to let me out and amazingly felt really guilty. Then yesterday me and the OH left Sainsburys without buying anything and noticed the security guard scrutinising us!

All this chocolate talk is making me hungry. I rarely have chocolate as I am lactose intolerant and don't really like dark chocolate. However if anyone has any recommendations for good dark but not too bitter fairtrade, pref organic chocolate i'll be all ears!

[Millymollymandy]

Well, apart from you, Red , how often do you guys eat chocolate?

I eat it at Christmas and my birthday, Easter and maybe 1 or 2 other times during the year. That's all.

I'd eat it every week if I could but (1) it rots my teeth (2) it makes me fat (3) it makes me spotty and (4) it's just downright unhealthy and (5) it's expensive!

I think that I have about 10 or 12 bars of chocolate a year... some times I don't have any for months and I do get bars (or very occasionally boxes) for Valentines, birthday, Christmas, etc... oh and a 100g bar lasts more than a week (usually) I only have a few chunks at a time, which is why I prefer dark chocolate

G+B was my chocolate of choice, but I really didn't know where it came from... now I do, I'll probably avoid it in the future.

Only a few chunks at a time! I don't buy chocolate very often because I have (and I mean HAVE!) to eat the whole bar, or until I feel sick. A few bits of choc is like eating one peanut -impossible!

[mrsflibble]

I'm currently chowing down on a nice alternative to chocolate; nougat. made by a local company out of mostly local ingredients and sold on the local mid week boot sale of all places

[Millymollymandy]

Oh god, I love nougat! That's something else I will sit and eat a whole bar of!