Zimbabwe

[The Riff-Raff Element]

For all of Sadams faults, before we started bombing and blockading the country, when you pressed the light switch, the room lit up.
It may just be me, but I put evil despots, and incompetent evil despots in different categories.
More people will die because of Mugabes incompetence than did because of Sadams evil.

I have no intentions of volunteering for the Zimbabwe Liberation army or donating to its war fund, its much easier to demand someone (else) goes and dies and someone else (pays).
The last time we tried to "fix" that patch of land, we put this genocidal maniac in power

Good Lord: I think I might be agreeing too. What is the world coming to!

It is true that for all the genocide, torture and injustices, Sadaam's Iraq was a functioning nation state with education, healthcare and plenty to eat. Now it is a hell-hole.

And, in practice, what do we actually do with Zimbabwe? Invade? Channel arms to the resistance à la Reagan era America. Both have horrible practical and moral complications.

What we could do, with the consent of neighbouring nations, is to secure the boarder crossings by force, defend the exit routes and allow anybody who wanted to leave to do so. But who would take them?

[MKG]

But do remember that we are not allowed (under UN conventions) just to go in to change an unpopular leadership - which is why the Weapons of Mass Distraction were invented in Iraq's case. But the UN is allowed to go in to prevent genocide, and should - using the agency of the African states surrounding Zimbabwe. I don't believe for one moment that the Zimbawean Army, such as it is, would oppose South African troops. Nor do I believe that, given the opportunity, any African statesman would cry over the ensuing downfall of the Mugabe regime. Nor do I believe that, if it happened now, China would object - they have too much to lose in an Olympics year.

[Brij]

And what about that international company based in London that just made a huge investment in Zimbabwe?

That made me feel sick, just as the rest of the world is preparing to start sanctioning the regime (or so the news I've read has lead me to believe), this idiotic corporation put more money into the regime! I've cursed them, pure and simple, believe in magic or not... I hope with all of my heart that that investment causes them no good at all.

As for Iraq/Afghanistan, I was quite young when it happened (yeah, I'm only a young'un) so at the time I wasn't aware of the genocide or oil factors, all I knew was that these men were bad and that the area was under very strict rule that meand people had very little freedom. But still, I thought it was something the country should be allowed to work itself out of, and I was aware that the people themselves had not made any *clear* cry to be "liberated". So I've always been against it, though I didn't fully understand the issues. But the Zimbabwe people have asked for help, they have cast their votes and if the UN (which, let's face it, thanks to Bush and Blair, no-one listens to any more) won't step in, the AU should be told under no uncertain terms that they should step in (though I don't know if they are equipped to do so), and if that fails... yes, send British troops in, if necessary. Yeah, fix my eyes and I'll train up as a soldier. These people have asked for help and we are in a position to provide it.

Mugabe has to go. We can only hope that Tsvangirai (sorry about the spelling) would be true to his word.

[hamster]

In some ways, whether you were for or against the war in Iraq and are now for or against military force in Zimbabwe, the double standard is still.... can't think of the word for it... don't want to say 'wrong', 'interesting' just sounds weird.... but anyway... If the war in Iraq was really about stopping dictators who were committing genocide and liberating their people, by the same logic, we should have gone into Zimbabwe years ago.

It demonstrates something that was mentioned in an interesting video about oil that I watched the other day, basically how war is often (though not always) part of an ongoing economic/foreign policy, rather than anything to do with ideals, or right and wrong etc. I suppose this just demonstrates the truth of that.

[Brij]

I guess the difference for me is what the citizenship want. As far as I was aware, most of the citizenship of Iraq were happy to put up with it because at least they had decent economic potential.

I see what you mean about double standards, but I do believe that if the population of a country is suffering, they have to undergo a sort of revolution of thinking to change that, and that outside force may not be the right way. But Zimbabweans clearly want Mugabe out, so if he won't shift, we have to help. Imagine if it were Brown gone mad (not that he hasn't) with power and we were all starving? I would want outsiders to help shift him from power. However if we were not starving, just maybe having to be very careful about public behaviour, but otherwise still had a reasonable standard of life, I would not want outsiders to intervene, since any use of arms risks loss of innocent life.

As I said, I don't know much about Iraq, I was a teenager when it was all happening, and I wasn't aware of all of the information. But that's how I see it. Mugabe has actually pillaged his own country, he isn't just a super-strict orthodox muslim.

[AXJ]

It demonstrates something that was mentioned in an interesting video about oil that I watched the other day, basically how war is often (though not always) part of an ongoing economic/foreign policy, rather than anything to do with ideals, or right and wrong etc. I suppose this just demonstrates the truth of that.

Couldn't agree more hamster, thats exactly what it is about. To stand by and watch the bread basket of Africa turned in to a famine stricken hell hole is nothing short or genicode on the part of the International Community. The way I see it, Africa is being starved to death, slaughted with AIDs and Malaria, not to mention the AK47, mainly down to the lack of international will to actually do anything about it. 'They' are doing 'thier' best to depopulate the place, and this is just a start. What is well known is that as climate change kicks in over the next 50 years, there are going to be millions of people who will be heading all points north, as they all ready are. The more they get rid of now, the less 'they' will have to worry about later. For us lucky ones it is almost like a mass brain washing, 'get used it' would seem to be the message, 'we didn't care, we don't care and we are not going to care either'

[oldfella]

What about the UK, USA, policy of targeted assassination with missiles with pinpoint accuracy and, as used by the Israeli's. As nothing is said about that by the international community why are we waiting?

[AXJ]

What about the UK, USA, policy of targeted assassination with missiles with pinpoint accuracy and, as used by the Israeli's. As nothing is said about that by the international community why are we waiting?

Didn't think I would agree with a statement like that, but in this case I do. I understand he is going to be inaugurated in a tent, now how hard is that going to be to hit?

Maybe they could just drop a piano on him or something, and we could all have a bloody good laugh to go with it . You could imagine YouTube... "Anvil drops through tent onto Mugarbe's head"

"send in the drones!!"

[Brij]

Maybe they could just drop a piano on him or something, and we could all have a bloody good laugh to go with it . You could imagine YouTube... "Anvil drops through tent onto Mugarbe's head"

Can we have ACME written on it, please?

[AXJ]

LoL Brij

[Ellendra]

and I was aware that the people themselves had not made any *clear* cry to be "liberated".

I'm curious how you define "clear", given that they were crying quite loudly.

Granted, any one person did not cry for very long, given that they were fed feet-first into a shredder at the slightest hint of dissent. Or, if the Husseins got bored with the rape rooms.