Work/ Self sufficientish conflict

[lovelygreenleaves]

I'm saving up to buy my own house, so have to work full time despite all the self sufficientish savings I've made! All I want to do is cut back on my hours and spend as much time as I can doing self sufficientish things! Don't get me wrong, I love hard work, but I'd rather work hard in my allotment than sat at my desk in a stuffy office. Anyone else find this conflict annoying? Any ideas to overcome? Or has anyone decided that renting is better than buying??

[ina]

Only to add to your thoughts: I had the same idea - work hard, save up, so I can buy my own place. Result? I lost my job and had to live on my savings, as I had saved too much to be entitled to benefits. Now I know I'll never have my own place. But renting isn't ideal, either.

I think my only option is winning the lottery!

[old tree man]

with my job we had to travel around the country so even after we retiered we ended up renting but it was a struggle to work and be as self sufficient as poss, i must admit being an old bugger gives us more time to do the ish thingy, even though we are skint we are happy

[Flo]

Not sure about the renting versus buying conundrum.

If you buy you are responsible for all the upkeep of the property. When the roof blows off or someone overfills the bath and floods the room below, damaging the electrics - well that's your problem and your bill. You can choose your repair man and the standard of the repairs.

If you rent, the landlord is supposed to deal with the majority of the repairs. Hey ho, so the teen in the flat upstairs flooded the bathroom and consequently my bathroom electrics, bathroom, bathroom cupboard Saturday night. And guess what - the out of hours service connected to the housing association couldn't be contacted because there was a glitch in turning the day system to the night system. There's a whole lot of out of hours callers with the same problem this morning. Good thing I caught teen's father and we managed to solve the worst of the problem though I'm still waiting for the electrician to come and say we haven't done things wrong. I would have got a general tradesman over the weekend I suspect not an electrician so would I have been better off? Who knows.

If you buy and don't pay the mortgage, you become homeless and no private landlord wants to rent to you as you are a bad financial bet and the councils have lists so long as to be ridiculous if you aren't a priority case. Of course both private and social landlords take into account if you owe money to a previous landlord.

Buying you can take your pick of where you live depending on what you can afford, renting is the same unless you are going for council houses in which case you have to take one of the first three offers or you are back to the bottom of the list.

Hmm - I've no idea which is best. Tent in a field I think some days.

[ina]

When you see properties for rent in rural location, especially with a bit of land - it's mostly: no kids, no pets. Oh yeah, there might be a field next to the house, and a stable for a horse - but landlords don't want a dog in the house! And anyway, all that kind of place is unaffordable. Unless you have a partner who works in oil.

[quibble]

Not sure my advice on renting versus buying would be helpful. You first question though is one I've been sruggling with for many years: is working for others and striving for self-sufficient or self-sufficientish goals contradictory?

/Startup rambling and overly long response/

I would love to be completely sell-sufficient, but this seems more of an ideal or fantasy rather than a practical goal. Self sufficiency contradictions pop up everywhere. For example: I'm posting this from a computer that I could never manufacture myself. The computer is using power, that with enough investment in solar panels or wind turbines, I could generate myself; but then, those solar panels and wind turbines are also beyond my ability to build from scratch. Heck, even something as simple as the garden fork I used this morning to turn my compost is beyond my ability to manufacture.

If I need or want these things, then no matter how much I would like it to be otherwise, I'm dependent on others. Even if I were to decide no more computers, no more Internet, no more whatever, there will still be something I can only get by dealing with other people. Lessening wants can certainly lessen the amount of time devoted to work for others. The best I've been able to do is to try and figure out what's a need and what's a want.

I'm terrible at this. I mistake wants and needs all the time. Then I spend more painful time trying to get rid of things I acquired that were certainly unneeded and are now unwanted. I guess the important thing is that whether getting something or getting rd of it, I'm doing it in the context of a community. Exchanging money earned from work for items produced by others doesn't mean there's not a community. I bought the computer from an old friend who owns a small computer store. I bought the garden fork from a neighbor who was moving. This same neighbor bought my unused (and unmissed!) roto-tiller.

So, what does this have to do with the basic contradiction of working for others and self sufficiency? Like us all, I work to live. I trade some of my time, skills and knowledge for a paycheck. (Both my employer and I probably think the other got the best side of the bargain. )

With my paycheck I bought the computer I'm typing on as well as the garden fork I used to turn my compost. I can't completely escape work. I can't be Robinson Crusoe. (Of course old Robinson had a ship load of ready-made tools and supplies at hand.) What I can do is figure out how to integrate work and non-work life (including my self sufficientish goals).

Trying to isolate work life and home life, to split them apart into two isolated and insulated islands, is good way to go crazy with frustration. For me, the only way to stay sane and happy is to find ways to make work life and non-work life parts of a bigger community. Staying happy and sane (or sanish) seem to be the essence of the good life.

/Stop rambling and overly long response/

[fruitcake]

I'd rather work hard in my allotment than sat at my desk in a stuffy office. Anyone else find this conflict annoying?

yes me

I've just asked to drop my hours to 4 days a week. The company has all the talk re the flexible working patterns etc but are a bit in the dark ages when it comes to implimenting it - I will persevere - I really can't hack sitting in the office 5 days per week (we ended up building - and OH used to work in oil - which as Ina pointed out was good to help acheive our goal - OH lived on his boat for years before that having been stung many moons ago by having bought a wee house and then getting made redundant almost immediately )

[lovelygreenleaves]

Trying to isolate work life and home life, to split them apart into two isolated and insulated islands, is good way to go crazy with frustration.

Do you know, that's exactly what I've been doing. I really see home and work as separate parts of my life and when I'm at work I feel like I'm being stopped from enjoying my life just to afford a house! I had a chat with OH and he doesn't feel this way. We figured out that it was because he actually enjoys his job and gets occasional satisfaction from it. I really don't, my job is all about money which is not how I am at all. I'm going to keep my eye out for a new job. I'm not looking for perfection, but if I can find something that ticks a couple more happiness boxes than the one I've got, then maybe I won't feel so bad about being there. Fingers crossed!

[Islay]

I seem to spend half my life considering this, blogging about it, talking about it. I'm a bit boring on the subject!

I'm in the enormously lucky position that my boyfriend likes his job and is happy to continue working. I work freelance (journalist), which brings in a little bit extra, but not a lot more than covering the childcare for our son! I guess when he eventually goes to school that will improve.

We made the decision that where we could, we would stop paying people to do things we could do ourselves - grow veg (not all our veg, we only have containers, no garden), bake our bread and sweet treats, and so on, but that we wouldn't feel guilty about earning to pay for some things. We also stopped buying crap - i.e. we spend where we need to (one or two really good quality items of clothing a year), but not where we don't (always take tap water in bottles everywhere we go)

These savings are enabling us to pay off all the hideous amount of debt accrued at university, and when that's paid off (in another month, hooray!), we'll be saving at a really good rate, which will mean when we do eventually buy (and I do think buying is the way forward), we will have a not-too-hideous mortgage, and will hopefully pay it off relatively quickly.

I believe in buying, not renting, but ONLY if you can afford big repayments, have good payment insurance, and have enough to cover any shortfall. Otherwise, stick to renting!

[KathyLauren]

If you rent, you are committed to having an income forever to pay it. If you buy, you are committed to having an income to pay the mortgage, but mortgages eventually get paid off, and then you are home free. For being self-sufficient, owning is definitely better. The only issue is that it's an uphill slog to get there.

I bit the bullet and did the rat-race thing for quite a few years. My home strategy was: (1) rent while saving up a down payment; (2) buy the cheapest place I could stand to live in; (3) pay the mortgage down faster than the minimum rate (which is why it had to be a cheap place). The third point was the most important. Paying the mortgage down faster and especially doing so as early as possible in the life of the mortgage, saves a ton of money. As a result, I paid it off in only 11 years.

Owning a place mortgage-free is, for me, essential to self-sufficiency.

[contadina]

I agree with Keith. We did pretty much the same but decided we'd need to sell up and buy something outside of the UK as there would be no way we could afford a property with some land without needing to take out another mortgage, which would have got us back to square one.

Living mortgage-free now means we can earn so much much less. I still write odd articles if we need to pay taxes and bills but the majority of time is spent producing the vast majority of our own food and building enclosures for various livestock which will enable us to buy even less in the future.

Bartering skills and goods is quite normal here and have become a regular part of lives.

Although you may feel torn spending most of your time working rather than following your dream, it's only when you get rid of all debts (and a mortgage is usually the biggest one) that you can really be free to follow them.

[mrsmiggins]

I think saying that you have to be mortgage free to be self sufficientish is a bit depressing. I agree that it's the ideal, but unfortunately unrealistic for most people. Saving up to buy is an excellent decision, but you don't have to be mortgage free, or even own a house, to be more self sufficientish. Buying definitely helps make it easier as you can make amendments to your house, but there's lots you can do in the meantime. Lets not forget that it is really difficult for first time buyers to get mortgages at the moment, never mind paying mortgages off any earlier. These days you might have to wait until your retirement to be mortgage free, so just do as much as you can now and enjoy it. Looking for a job you enjoy more is a great idea, save as much as you can, but try not to get stressed about it. Don't forget to enjoy the present as well as looking ahead. Good luck!

[Islay]

I think saying that you have to be mortgage free to be self sufficientish is a bit depressing. I agree that it's the ideal, but unfortunately unrealistic for most people. Saving up to buy is an excellent decision, but you don't have to be mortgage free, or even own a house, to be more self sufficientish. Buying definitely helps make it easier as you can make amendments to your house, but there's lots you can do in the meantime. Lets not forget that it is really difficult for first time buyers to get mortgages at the moment, never mind paying mortgages off any earlier. These days you might have to wait until your retirement to be mortgage free, so just do as much as you can now and enjoy it. Looking for a job you enjoy more is a great idea, save as much as you can, but try not to get stressed about it. Don't forget to enjoy the present as well as looking ahead. Good luck!

I agree, in a way. I think it's fair to say that to be entirely self sufficient (or as close to it as humanly possible), you need to be mortgage free, but to be Ish is a very different thing, and can definitely be done while renting/paying a mortgage.

[lovelygreenleaves]

I think saying that you have to be mortgage free to be self sufficientish is a bit depressing. I agree that it's the ideal, but unfortunately unrealistic for most people. Saving up to buy is an excellent decision, but you don't have to be mortgage free, or even own a house, to be more self sufficientish. Buying definitely helps make it easier as you can make amendments to your house, but there's lots you can do in the meantime. Lets not forget that it is really difficult for first time buyers to get mortgages at the moment, never mind paying mortgages off any earlier. These days you might have to wait until your retirement to be mortgage free, so just do as much as you can now and enjoy it. Looking for a job you enjoy more is a great idea, save as much as you can, but try not to get stressed about it. Don't forget to enjoy the present as well as looking ahead. Good luck!

Thanks mrsmiggins, that's made me a bit less stressed! Thanks everyone!