What is poverty?

[oldjerry]

There have been a number of very good contributions to this thread, especially around control of ones life and opportunities. One thing I think we've missed out is equality. The happiest societies are the more equal ones. If everyone around is in the same boat, people are happier. When you are sat on your sofa watching widescreen telly all day and that is all you've got and will ever get, whilst others around you 'earn' more in a year (some in a month) than you'll get in a life time, you are going to feel poor (and resentful, even if the sofa and telly was 'given' to you by the state). And frankly if the only opportunity in life you get, is to sit on a sofa in front of a telly, then to me that is poverty.

I'm sure that's true,but how do you create such a situation without resorting to the Kymer Rouge or that loony in North Korea?
I like the idea of teaching real practical skills in school,about a 100 years ago (or so it feels) I did a PGCE with a view to teaching Rural Studies,true to form it was just the time that Mrs.T decided to bin anything that wasn't the three Rs so it wasn't a great career move! , but it would be good if you could leave school knowing how to ,at least, grow and cook your own food.This might be heresy,so I apologise in advance,but I think we might be overusing the term self-sufficiency,for many it's become almost a pejorative term with connotations of the 70's,hippies,and much read books from Dorling Kindersley,maybe self-reliance encompasses most 'ish' stuff and suggests a constructive attitude to life . God this is pretentious claptrap for a Saturday morning,I,m to do some weeding!

[Milims]

I think that perhaps, in many cases, poverty has to do with perspective. As Jandrea said

poverty is the fact (or the feeling) of having significantly less than the people around you.

I know for a fact that we have significantly less than most of our neighbours in terms of finance and posessions. Yet sitting here next to my son who has just smiled at me and kissed my cheek, looking out into the garden where the chickens are roaming happily and the pumpkins are growing, hearing my partner and daughter laughing together, feeling the warmth of the sun and breathing the fresh air, I feel very happy and satisfied with what I have in my life. Time was when these simple joys were missing from my life and their space filled with posessions that I neither wanted nor could afford and I felt poor. I've changed my outlook and feel rich beyond measure.
Maybe that's the reason I felt moved to ask the question. Having seen the program and others like it, I really do wonder if the "poor" family will ever feel rich simply by being given the money to pay their bills and buy what they want, or is it that what they really need is to learn that all the money in the world will never satisfy an impoverished soul.

[123sologne]

I so agree with you Milims.

[grahamhobbs]

Millims beautifully expressed. When i first joined the forum I said I thought I was the richest person in London (and here in London there is a lot of very rich people) because of our allotment. When friends and family gather there, as we often do, we are in a different world, it feeds the soul as no materialistic riches can.

To Oldjerry, a society becoming more equal does not mean creating a mean and evil dictatorship. Denmark is reputed to be the happiest place in the world to live, more egalitarian than here, but I see no signs of dictatorship.

When I was younger this country was more equal (materially, not in it's class system) than it is today, the same could be said of America. Recently I was surprised to learn that in America in the fifities the rich were subjected to a 90% (!!!)income tax. As the reigns were taken off the rich, they have got richer and richer, with their banks and multinationals dominating the world. With much of that wealth being sucked from the poorest nations in the world.

Although they are unequal in their development, it is heartening to see places like China, India and South America lifting themselves out of this exploitation and poverty and challenging the domination by the rich of the West.

[Stonehead]

Recently I was surprised to learn that in America in the fifities the rich were subjected to a 90% (!!!)income tax.

Actually, the highest rate of tax in the US was towards the end of WW2 when the top bracket was 94%. (The first bracket was 23%.) The highest rate then dipped into the 80s, climbed back into the 90s during the early 1950s and stabilised at 91% for 10 years until 1963. Since then, it's largely been on a downward trend. (I've been reading Robertson's History of the American Economy. )

[123sologne]

94% of their earning gone in taxes! Whoa! And I thought the French were the worst for taxes.... They certainly have never come close to those type of taxes

[oldjerry]

Millims beautifully expressed. When i first joined the forum I said I thought I was the richest person in London (and here in London there is a lot of very rich people) because of our allotment. When friends and family gather there, as we often do, we are in a different world, it feeds the soul as no materialistic riches can.

To Oldjerry, a society becoming more equal does not mean creating a mean and evil dictatorship. Denmark is reputed to be the happiest place in the world to live, more egalitarian than here, but I see no signs of dictatorship.

When I was younger this country was more equal (materially, not in it's class system) than it is today, the same could be said of America. Recently I was surprised to learn that in America in the fifities the rich were subjected to a 90% (!!!)income tax. As the reigns were taken off the rich, they have got richer and richer, with their banks and multinationals dominating the world. With much of that wealth being sucked from the poorest nations in the world.

Although they are unequal in their development, it is heartening to see places like China, India and South America lifting themselves out of this exploitation and poverty and challenging the domination by the rich of the West.

Yep you're right, maybe the examples were inappropriate,but I'm not sure the emerging nations are heading towards egalitarian societies.In my twilight years I have lost the hope that things can change as a result of anything a government can do.If things are to change then people will be persuaded by example (ie all you self-reliant people and what you do) rather than being preached to or cajoled.
I'd love the world to be a better place but I can only make it so for my immediate family. meanwhile,those damn weeds are still growing!

[Milims]

The thing is OJ -even if we all only make it better for our immediate family we've got it covered!

[123sologne]

I think time will make the changes happen as the current Western World system is impossible to sustain for long. Think about it, as far as history is concern, the current way of living in the so called civilized world is actually quite new and it is already showing some serious tiredness... We have all realised here (I think) that it does not work and many others are joining us. The fact that oil prices are going up therefore food prices are going up is pushing people to react to learn self-sufficiency. Also, this recession has done some good as far as that is concern and even if some go back to their old ways in a few years time, not all will do. I actually have hope to see some serious changes in my life time, I cannot imagine another 50 years of the madness we are living in currently without some serious consequences. In case you wonder, I hope to at least live to 90! So, now you know how old I am!
So you see Oldjerry, the World will become a better place even if we have to do it one person at a time

[Millymollymandy]

94% of their earning gone in taxes! Whoa! And I thought the French were the worst for taxes.... They certainly have never come close to those type of taxes

There wouldn't be much point working at all!

[123sologne]

Well I just did a quick calculation and one big boss who can easily earn 3 Millions a year would still take £180K back home. Way way more than I earn!

[oldjerry]

I think time will make the changes happen as the current Western World system is impossible to sustain for long. Think about it, as far as history is concern, the current way of living in the so called civilized world is actually quite new and it is already showing some serious tiredness... We have all realised here (I think) that it does not work and many others are joining us. The fact that oil prices are going up therefore food prices are going up is pushing people to react to learn self-sufficiency. Also, this recession has done some good as far as that is concern and even if some go back to their old ways in a few years time, not all will do. I actually have hope to see some serious changes in my life time, I cannot imagine another 50 years of the madness we are living in currently without some serious consequences. In case you wonder, I hope to at least live to 90! So, now you know how old I am!
So you see Oldjerry, the World will become a better place even if we have to do it one person at a time

Can't disagree with any of that,but when I'm low I remember we were thinking the same in '74 (and Silent Spring was published long before that) but having said that I havent got 40 more years,but I do have 3 kids under 11 (late starter!) and they will have the skills to prosper in the world you envisage(the older 2 can both milk the quieter goat , and the youngest can already distinguish several different types of domestic animal dung! - and throw it at his sisters !

[Flo]

Poverty is what you make it in this country. Anyone can be inept and not manage on their money. Or refuse to work, claim the benefits available or get themselves into dire straits wanting more than they can afford.

I blame it on too much marketing making people think that there's only want in life and not just need.

[Susie]

Poverty is what you make it in this country. Anyone can be inept and not manage on their money. Or refuse to work, claim the benefits available or get themselves into dire straits wanting more than they can afford.

I wouldn't find it easy to manage on benefits or minimum wage, especially given housing costs here and lack of council accommodation (although those of you in London are welcome to do hollow laughs at this point ). I could manage day to day probably, but I would find the occasional unavoidable expenses (e.g. things breaking and having to be replaced) and anything not in the day-to-day budget (winter coat?) difficult to integrate.

I manage my money very efficiently at the moment: but the fact that I have some money to start with gives me a lot of help in managing it (e.g. access to cheaper credit/ ability to pay up front for good-quality things that I'm going to keep for years).

I'm quite happy to believe I'm inept (and I probably am a bit), but I suspect I'm not alone.

[Masco&Bongo]

We have been inept in the past with money... we're still paying for it now

We both work full time in decently paid jobs, however over 1/3 of our joint income goes on debt repayment from when we were finishing uni and originally setting up home.

I wouldn't class us as anywhere near poverty; however, every single item has to be budgeted for. We have no spare money for unavoidable expenses (breakages etc). If our washing machine was irreparably broken, we certainly couldn't afford a new one. Currently, our central heating is broken (and has been for 6 months), we can't afford to have a plumber in to look at it, never mind any repairs. Luckily, we don't use it in the summer, but it's turning colder now....

We don't have fancy cars, big TV's etc and I don't really want them; however, it would be nice to not be in so much trouble; and know that if anything broke etc, I wouldn't have to worry about where the replacement would come from.