but what should we do?

[den_the_cat]

these questions always pop up in my head and in another thread someone else mentioned something similar, so here are my current 'which is the best option' questions, either because I'm really not sure or because I've had *ahem* discussions with friends over which are better as a holistic approach

If anyone has words of wisdom for me I'd be delighted to hear them :)

Is it better to;

to drive an old, knackered and oil leaking car until it dies or to replace it with a new dual fuel car immediately?

to use bleached but 100% recycled loo roll or unbleached but 20% recycled?

to buy recycled by mail order or non recycled at the local shop (this obviously may depend on what it is!)

to spend money on alternative energy etc (which in the majority of houses can take a long time to payback the cost) or to simply use as little energy from existing sources as possible and donate money to a worthwhile eco-charity?

[Martin]

stick with the old car, the energy used in building a new one is colossal!
The second question needs further thought - I'd probably go for the softest!
(there are limits to being green, and a sandpapered bot is not included!)
Buy recycled at a local boot sale
Take advantage of all the grants going for insulation, use energy saving bulbs etc, etc - THEN - pv panels are just not economically feasible in this country -25 years payback!
The two that have reasonable payback times are wind and solar hot water systems - a solar hot water system should pay for itself within 5-8 years, and according to the size of the turbine, if you "grid-tie" it, the payback can be as little as 5 years (planning usually isn't a problem for solar hot water, wind turbines can be problematical- there are a LOT of nimbies about) - thankfully attitudes are changing, and there is pressure for an easing of planning restrictions

[Martin]

ps - car - solar hot water system - new car will depreciate by the cost of a whole average home system in its first year! - the car sits there losing value, while your solar hot water will probably SAVE you £300 or more a year on your fuel bills (and that's before all the price rises to come!) -for the next thirty years or so!
you pays yer money, and takes yer choice!
ps from what I've read the dual fuel cars are a joke, ludicrously expensive to buy, and not particularly economical!

[ina]

I go with most of what Martin says... Although:

Stop the oil leaks and keep driving - as little as possible!

Martin - such a sensitive bum... I'd go for 100% recycled and non-bleached (always hoping that it wasn't loo paper in its former life, too!)

And it's always good to spend as little as possible - or rather, to buy as little as possible. Sometimes I wonder whether all these e-bay and freecycling thingies don't get us "buying" more than we really need, too - sometimes, anyway - even if it's only the transport for the articles we need to pay.

[den_the_cat]

lol - its always a balance with me, I use 100% recycled but its bleached, to buy unbleached would involve getting the (old) car out to drive a place I don't generally pass, so that would probably negate the unbleached-ness.

[ina]

True - I think everybody has to decide that for themselves, for each item / event as it happens... General rules always overlook something!

[Shirley]

You could always sell, or freecycle your old knackered car... and then get a new one.. thus not consigning the old car to the dump just yet.

Oh dear - I don't use recycled loo roll either - I guess I too have a sensitive bum. Cotton soft 100% organic cotton bog roll is great and doubles up as tissues if your hankies aren't washed :-)) I do find that you use less too which surely must be taken into account both in terms of the environment AND my wallop (Jonathan's word for wallet!! )

I do take your point about the freecycle miles... although we generally make a point of doing something else at the same time as collecting a freecycle. Unfortunately that doesn't always go to plan.

[Stonehead]

to drive an old, knackered and oil leaking car until it dies or to replace it with a new dual fuel car immediately?

It depends! If your old car has good fuel consumption (say 30mpg or better), doesn't smoke and the oil leaks can be stopped, then keep it. Even with a lot of replacement parts and welding, it's still better in terms of its whole life energy consumption than buying a new car.

If it uses a lot of fuel, is smokey (and can't be easily fixed) and the oil leaks are irreversible, then send it for scrap or reuse it for something else - making sure all potential contaminants are removed.

The tough decision then is do you either buy another old car in better condition or new? Personally, at this point I'd for another old car and wait to see what happens with hydrogen and fuel cell technologies.

Dual fuel, hybrids etc may be more efficient but they are still not a long-term solution and their production uses vast amounts of energy.

to use bleached but 100% recycled loo roll or unbleached but 20% recycled?

If you have grey water recycling and mains water, then get a bidet. And no, don't recycle the bidet water but by recycling most of your household water you can afford to use a little in your bidet.

Otherwise, look more closely at your loo roll. Is it oxygen bleached or chlorine bleached? (Oxygen bleaching is less bad.) Is it the really rubbish sort of loo paper than actually means you use more than a higher quality paper? Can you ration your use? (My parents used to restrict us to eight sheets when I was a kid - six person household and low income for many years.)

Are there other alternative loo rolls (eg unbleached and 100% recycled)? Remember, non-recycled is not necessarily "bad" - if the paper comes from European managed forests, almost all now plant more trees per year than they fell. Also, a loo roll with a proportion of virgin pulp will be stronger than a 100% recycled roll and so you may use less of it.

What's more important? A comfortable bum and a guilty conscience or a slightly scratchy bum and a clean conscience? No one wears a hair shirt because it feels good!!

to buy recycled by mail order or non recycled at the local shop (this obviously may depend on what it is!)

Persuade your local shop to stock recycled! But, whether you you buy recycled via mail order or non-recycled at the local shop, the transport energy used is the same. Much better not to buy - if you can! A better question is whether to buy from a small business (whether local or mail order) or from a big corporate business.

to spend money on alternative energy etc (which in the majority of houses can take a long time to payback the cost) or to simply use as little energy from existing sources as possible and donate money to a worthwhile eco-charity?

A bit of both. As energy prices rise, so alternative energies become more cost effective but choosing to go green should not be seen in simple economic turns. If you believe we should be using less non-renewables, then you will use more expensive non-renewables so long as you can afford them (even if cutting down in other areas of your budget).

You should be aiming to use less energy as well, even if that actually means the payback time on your alternative energy sources then becomes longer. Why? Because you're going green because it's morally right, not cheaper.

I don't donate to eco-charities as I believe I can make more difference closer to home, a large chunk of the donation will go in admin, and I support them by either paying a membership fee and/or buying their goods and services in preference to those from big business. So, I buy from the Organic Catalogue and am an HDRA member, but I do not give them donations.

I'd say the main thing is to tread as lightly as possible. Do without as much as you can and within reason, re-use as much as you can, use as much recycled as you can, and only buy new products when you have to. And if you have to buy, buy local, buy from small businesses and source from as close to home as possible.

Of course, it's easier said than done but life without challenge is boring.

Stonehead

PS And remember, don't get too hung up about the problems. Being green is as much about having fun as it is about saving the planet. Leave the doom and gloom to the consumerist masses doing their clockwork jobs. (And my apologies to the Ishers who have to live more in that reality than we do! )

[ina]

No one wears a hair shirt because it feels good!!

Actually, I do

I have several jumpers of the hairshirt type, made from rather coarse wool - and often get asked, how can you stand that on your skin... I don't know, I suppose peoples' sensitivity to "scratchy" clothes varies. Although I do have quite sensitive skin, i.e. I can't stand anything perfumed on it, and any plastic material gives me the shivers!
I think the slight "scratching" actually increases blood circulation and makes it feel warmer. (Am I deluding myself here?)

[den_the_cat]

well in reality of course I just do what is the most acceptable balance of convenience and green, lets face it there's rarely a choice of ecologiocally friendly loo roll at the supermarket and there's always more important things to buy if you have to carry a couple of bags home so its not something I tend to get from the local shop....

but there are loads of instances where I wonder what's best. I work from home and so don't have to commute, but that does mean I use a load more heating and lighting in the winter than when I used to be in the office?. I'm not about to change my work based on the answer but I wonder if I use more energy to stay at home than I did when I drove 7 miles a day? (I know thermastat low and low energy lightbulbs but its still 10 hours more of each than it would be otherwise)

oh and in my language new car = not as old. I'd no sooner buy a genuinely new car than use the cash as ecologically friendly loo roll

[Steve M]

However if you get your home energy from a green supplier then it doesn't matter that you are using more energy by working at home as it will be from renewable and zero carbon sources, plus because you have cut out the car journey you'll be reducing you're carbon footprint even more!!

Also by working at home you don't have to put with the people who have to have ecvery light on all the time and need the heaters on full in winter and air con on full in summer, and can do the things like you say - put you thermostat lower, open a window etc.

[Stonehead]

Anyone else listening to Jeremy Vine on "Are we too affluent"? They had an excellent bloke on who said that since the 1970s we have moved from a "being" culture to a "having" culture.

I've banged off an email to the programme (typical ranter!), but it's well worth listening to again on the Jeremy Vine section of the Radio 2 website.

Stonehead

PS Just making some Grantham Gingerbread while I do this, and the batter is delicious! Also potted a rabbit from the kitchen window, so he'll be going in the dinner tomorrow night.

[Ranter]

I heard that the item on Jeremy Vine too.

Strange how affronted some people were by the notion that all this time striving for more consumer goods to fill up ever bigger houses wasn't going to make them happy in the long term.

[Mandyz]

to drive an old, knackered and oil leaking car until it dies or to replace it with a new dual fuel car immediately?

I struggled with that one too - although it wasn't a leaking car it was a big ol' van. Fortunately it dies on me so we got a newer fuel efficient car.

to use bleached but 100% recycled loo roll or unbleached but 20% recycled?

I know the answer to this one - the question is wrong. The answer is FBWs! Out with paper, in with soft flannel. And as soon as I get around to buying that flannel... in the meantime we use recycled paper good for septic tanks (even though we don't have a septic tank) and as little as possible. And I always have that handheld shower head...

[den_the_cat]

that may be the environmentally sound answer but I can't imagine the BF's mums face when they come to stay and I explain she needs to wipe her bum on that bit of material and then drop it in a bucket