Vaccination v homeopathy

[frozenthunderbolt]

Uk death rate of kids from measles? 20?, 25?per annum?

Any idea what those rates would be if no-one was vaccinated?

Enjoy the idea of shingles as an adult?
Don't get vaccinated and make sure your kids can endure the agony.
Doesn''t have to be fatal to be sensible.

[oldjerry]

For some reason,this subject seems to inspire a fervour in people unmatched outside religeous fundamentalism.I'm clearly missing something somewhere,or just as likely,just being incoherent.What I thought I wrote was:

My kids ARE all vaccinated (Ms. OJ is also a zealot).
When it comes to personal freedom vs. the well-being of the herd, there are a few ,let's say,inconsistencies.
Anyhow,sorry for the upset.

If you wade through the stuff on the efficacy of vaccination for common childhood diseases,you come up against this chasm-like polarization of views between the rabid anti-vaccine people,and the Medical Industry,neither seem to base their arguement on any real data.

Interestingly,here in the UK,Chickenpox vaccine is (if I remember rightly)not available on the NHS precisely BECAUSE of the danger of it leading to the occurrence of Shingles in the elderly.

[Crickleymal]

I'm not sure it's necessarily vaccination that causes the polarisation of opinions, there's also homeopathy mixed in here as well. So this isn't a rigourously set up experiment

[frozenthunderbolt]

Interestingly,here in the UK,Chickenpox vaccine is (if I remember rightly)not available on the NHS precisely BECAUSE of the danger of it leading to the occurrence of Shingles in the elderly.

I beg your pardon - in this case it relates to chicken pox not measles. Childhood exposure and out breaks help to keep adult immune systems boosted, thus the vaccine (and less adult contact with chicken poxed kids) is delatarious in the prevention of shingles.

That particular part of my rant withdrawn

Still maintain that vaccines for serious diseases, particularly those that can have secondary effects on those arround you (like german measles on pregnant ladies) etc should be mandatory.

The guts of arguments against it being that the autism et al arguments were made by a chap who was insufficiently qualified and who later admitted that his 'results' were a complete fabrication.

I'm also willing to piss a few people off and say that homeopathic vaccines are bunk. Great if you enjoy getting your tiny amounts of low alcohol fluids intramuscularly. But to say they have any measureable effect beyond the allowance for placebo is just silly.

[MKG]

I'm reading around vaccination at the moment. Not that I'm (yet) taking one side or the other, but I thought I'd throw a small spanner in the works ...

There is little doubt that vaccination ameliorates the effects of its target. But it appears that there is zero evidence (and I do mean zero) that flu vaccines do anything at all to reduce the incidence of the disease, so the social argument, at least in the case of flu, is a non-starter. I'm looking for data for other vaccines ... I'll report back.

Mike

[The Riff-Raff Element]

There is little doubt that vaccination ameliorates the effects of its target. But it appears that there is zero evidence (and I do mean zero) that flu vaccines do anything at all to reduce the incidence of the disease, so the social argument, at least in the case of flu, is a non-starter. I'm looking for data for other vaccines ... I'll report back.

Mike

I think it's one of those that does offer significant protection to the recipient but it isn't offered in a wide enough population to actually stand much chance of significantly reducing incidence. I dimly recall that something like 80% of a population has to be vaccinated before much impact is seen.

'flu is a bit odd because the vaccine can only be produced once the season's variety has emerged, so there is very little time to get it to market, hence its use in only a targeted population. I imagine that if Big Pharma could produce the necessary volumes quickly enough they would be deploying their lobbyists in short order to make sure we all got it (and paid for it through our taxes ).

[oldjerry]

That's the crux of it really.If the vaccination can be developed profitably it will be.When it exists it will be deemed necessary(priming of public opinion beginning just as final testing takes place.)Both sides,pro and anti vaccine use the stats they chose to 'prove' their point.Come to think of it,I suppose Homeopathy is just as much a business,so what's the difference.?
Strange really that we have this discussion about vaccinating against diseases that some in the west see as unnecessary,while in other areas of the World,scores of children die of the same disease,as they can't afford the vaccine.( Where's my mind going,it isn't even Christmas yet..)

[gregorach]

Come to think of it,I suppose Homeopathy is just as much a business,so what's the difference.?

One actually works.

[oldjerry]

So does my car,but I'd probably be better off without it.