Would you buy?

[Andy Hamilton]

Nice to be called a nice guy greenbean. I have actualy been contacted by someone else who is starting a magazine and both myself and my brother will be writing for them. There are also other magazines starting in this field, so if there was a gap in the market it is slowly being filled. Although I would love to start up a magazine, it is also nice to let someone else take all the risks.

We will probally up the amount of things that we sell on the site but will be careful to unsure it is not too obtrusive. I was thinking of some self sufficient shop pages, have a few avenues to look down including some colaborations with other sites. But will not change too much, probally not change the forum at all.

[greenbean]

An online self sufficientish shop sounds good, little outlay, no huge stock keeping problems, have you seen http://www.healthy-house.co.uk/index.php?

[Andy Hamilton]

Had not seen that before, will have to invetigate further.Similar to that yes and of course no outlay. Just have to keep a close eye on the suppliers to make sure they are as ethical as they say they are. Did you read about the make poverty history band made in chinese sweatshops?

[greenbean]

No I didn't read about that, how awful. Do you have a link to an article?
I'll be interested to see how the campaign goes at the G8 summit this year especially as it's just down the road from me.

[Andy Hamilton]

No I didn't read about that, how awful. Do you have a link to an article?
I'll be interested to see how the campaign goes at the G8 summit this year especially as it's just down the road from me.

Here is the Sweatshop article link

My girlfriend is from Edingburgh and her sister is going to visit us down here during the G8 because their will no doubt be some riots. Never understand the anti capitalist riots, surely breaking things creates work, uses more resources and as such is a truely capitalist act. Well thats my view, I hope that Geldof et al can do something good this G8 though.

[ina]

I read in last Sunday's paper that the residents of the village near Gleneagles (Auchterrarder, I think?) have been asked to make sure that their insurance covers damage through rioters. So just because they have the misfortune to live there they now have to pay more insurance, too? Is that fair? Shouldn't that at least be covered by the G8, seeing that they are wasting millions already, anyway?

Ina

[Andy Hamilton]

I read in last Sunday's paper that the residents of the village near Gleneagles (Auchterrarder, I think?) have been asked to make sure that their insurance covers damage through rioters. So just because they have the misfortune to live there they now have to pay more insurance, too? Is that fair? Shouldn't that at least be covered by the G8, seeing that they are wasting millions already, anyway?

Ina

It is not fair you are right, but I think the rioters themselves should have to pay for any damage that they make. Should they not be reponsible for their actions? I might sypathise with their cause but I really do not agree with their tactics. It makes a mockery of peaceful protesting.

[wulf]

It is not fair you are right, but I think the rioters themselves should have to pay for any damage that they make. Should they not be reponsible for their actions? I might sypathise with their cause but I really do not agree with their tactics. It makes a mockery of peaceful protesting.

Agreed. Those who riot and cause wanton damage are demonstrating a lack of responsibility, which detracts from the call to western leaders to act responsibly with the wealth and power at their disposal.

Wulf

[ina]

Of course you are both right. I just don't think they would pay up, and I see potential riot damage as just one "cost" that the organisers of the summit should budget for! After all, if the damage/injuries happened to the participants, I can't see them pulling out their own wallet...

Anyway, the residents of the village have to suffer to a certain extent, riots or no riots. One women said they are being stopped and checked out every time they go anywhere; each quick trip to the local shops takes much longer than usual. Now, certain folk would loudly claim compensation for that - but they are expected to increase their insurance cover! My idea is G8 should pay that as a goodwill measure.

Anyway, let's hope all demonstrations will be peaceful. I think a lot of people with very good intentions are going there, so hopefully they'll keep the nasty element in check.

Ina

[ina]

Sorry, me again.

I just realised that we had got away from the original topic - would you buy?

Andy, how about using your cycle trip to do a bit of market research? No better chance than this; to get together with lots of people with similar interests (but sufficiently different outlooks on life) and the local knowledge to see what's going on in different parts of the country, too. I realise from some of the discussions that life down south is different, and that what would be a seller there might not be successful here - or the other way round.

Ina

[Andy Hamilton]

My idea is G8 should pay that as a goodwill measure.....

Anyway, let's hope all demonstrations will be peaceful. I think a lot of people with very good intentions are going there, so hopefully they'll keep the nasty element in check.

Ina

No offence Ina but I can't see G8 paying up, I don't think the rioters will pay up either. I also don't think that any of it will be peaceful, I would love to be proved wrong on all counts, but considering previous G8 summits we all know what is most likely to happen.

Cheers for the market research comment, very easy to have a narrow view of the country (and perhaps the world if you see above) and yes of course there is nothing like talking to every day people accross this country to see what would work. I had not actually thought of that, so cheers again for the comment.

[Guest]

obviously, posting anonymously lest I be considered an anarchist nut!

I'm no seasoned campaigner nor violent anarchist however I think its important to have "robust" demonstrations because generally, normal "peaceful" demonstrations are completely ignored.
Just because stuff may get a little rough, doesnt make it "violent" (surely violence is defined by "people getting injured".
The only times i've ever seen demonstrations get violent is when the police overreact and start treating the public with violence ( in my albeit limited experience).

Of course, if "rioters" damaged private property of local residents then that would be entirely unnecessary and pretty stupid.

Unfortunatly, those in control of our lives and governments have generally little interest in what we have to say unless they are forced to listen.

Just waving placards and singing songs makes not the slightest difference.
Remember, Ghandi was a peaceful protestor who's methods were often met with violence - It was effective - but he was not the one committing the violence.

Unfortunately the tabloids seldom report the non-violent bystanders who get charged and clubbed by policemen "defending the peace".

incidentally, I'm no anarchist student. i'm in my mid thirties have job/wife/mortgage and throughout the 80's and early 90's even voted Tory!(yeah, i know, i was young!) - alas - I've seen a few things since that have changed my mind about our apparent democracy - and figure its about time we made them really listen to us(the people , not big business) for a change.

[greenbean]

I agree with you Mr Guest. Peaceful non eventful protests do not make any impact and Yes it is usually the nervous panicky 18 year old policemen who create a problem

[Muddypause]

I also don't think that any of it will be peaceful

Disappointing to hear you say that, Andy. Masses of it will be peaceful, but you may not get to hear about it. Just becuase it is not reported, don't think it is insignificant. And don't confuse people's anger and passion about the issues as violence. There are parts of society and the media that like to undermine legitimate dissent by portraying it as mindless thuggery; it saves them having to enter into debate.

It is another example of the way the media manipulate what we think, dividing people's opinions, encouraging us to pass on half truths and misinformation, detracting from the issues. Before you know it, we all believe that anyone who protests is an anarchist, or a communist, and want to bring chaos, or worse, will cost us money.

If people are concerned that there will be rioters present, then it seems like good advice to check their insurance policy covers them for it. Most of the ones I've seen do, but there may be some policies that exclude this. Make the rioters pay is a great idea, but in the absense of any real way of ensuring that this happens, insurance against roits seems as wise as insurance against theft.

I like to look at it this way: in any non-totalitarian society, there will be people who seek to abuse the system that allows us our freedoms, but I would rather have it like that than like the alternative.

I also consider that imposed, enforced, solvable poverty is a terrible form of abuse. We sit here in the fourth wealthiest country in the world and applaud Tescos for supplying jeans at £4 a pair (capitalism at work); we demand DVD players for less than £20 (the power of consumer choice). We are told that this is how we improve our standard of living. But I find myself wondering how it is possible to achieve these prices if not by paying the people who make them less than a living wage. Give it it's true perspective, and the injustice of an increased premium is a dreadfully inappropriate comparison.

surely violence is defined by "people getting injured"

and

Just waving placards and singing songs makes not the slightest difference.

About the only bits I disagree with.

[Andy Hamilton]

Don't get me wrong I have been on marches myself I have also spoke at length to some of the 'rioters'. I was shocked to find that some just do it for fun it has nothing to do with sticking up for a cause. It is this kind of behaivor that I am condeming, definetly not peaceful protest. I remember marching against the CJB and beacuse so many police were there I riot did break out. The marchers were backed into a corner, luckily me and my mate had nipped off for a pint by then and so did not get mixed up in the chaos.

I really do think that we shouldn't have the right to protest, but I think we also overlook other rights. The right to buy is a good one, if we want to put a stop to unfair trade etc we need to closely examine all the products that we buy. We have far more power as consumers than we do as protesters, we are often too lazy to exersise this right.Or we will go for a cheaper and less fairly traded option as we 'need' to spend money on other things. I try my best to buy ethically but I too will fall into the traps that I have mentioned.