Peak oil

[Kfish]

TMB, you make some good points. I have this argument with my boyfriend on a regular basis, because I also read a libertarian forum which has a section on survivalism and gun ownership.

David's argument is basically that a survivalist with a gun won't shoot you because you can grow more food for them i.e. you're more valuable alive. I'm not convinced that people are that rational, if gun forums are any guide Particularly in a crisis. However, I still believe that a strong community is far better than a gun.

I'm not sure who brought up the moral issue of deserting one's society, but it's something I still chew over. On one hand, by growing one's own food and otherwise becoming more self-sufficient, one reduces one's own reliance on that society, so it is actually less burdened by your presence. On the other hand, self-sufficiency implies weakened ties with the rest of society, which may conflict with obligations to the society that one was born / lives in. The fact that we are discussing "end of society" scenarios in the first place suggests that we are less wedded to the idea of society in its current form.

But there is a difference between abandoning society per se and wanting a different form of society. Unless you can become totally self-sufficient, you will rely to some extent on some other people, and it can be argued that you have obligations to them in return. However, just because you have obligations to a society doesn't mean you are obliged to support society as you find it. A few of my more gardenish friends have, by sheer coincidence, moved into walking distance from my house, and we swap plants and produce occasionally. This is also a society, and one that I am comfortable being obligated to.

Wombat, I live in Brisbane. Actually, I'm one of those people that make rude comments about people who live in Sydney, so I see I shall have to take some of them back!

I'm also a law student and work in a small law firm part-time. I get to see a lot of people with whom I would not want to form a society (mostly lawyers, they all seem to be obsessed with status and stuff ) I've asked the family & friends to tell me if I'm turning into a wanker, and they assure me that the chickens will save me.

[Wombat]

Onyer KFish!

I would be interested to hear the rude comments you don't take back!

I still don't see any conflict between slef sufficiency and working for a better society, but each to his own.

I have spent more time than I want to with lawyers over the last year due to goings on at work - some are OK and obviously you are.

I get up to Brissy every month or so, so PM me if you want to get together for a chat one evening.

Nev

[Magpie]

>I'm not sure who brought up the moral issue of deserting one's society, but it's something I still chew over. On one hand, by growing one's own food and otherwise becoming more self-sufficient, one reduces one's own reliance on that society, so it is actually less burdened by your presence. On the other hand, self-sufficiency implies weakened ties with the rest of society, which may conflict with obligations to the society that one was born / lives in. The fact that we are discussing "end of society" scenarios in the first place suggests that we are less wedded to the idea of society in its current form.

Great point, Kfish, I think about this too, particularly as we have also not sent our children to school, thinking they are better off without it. I think the same things about that decision - would I be better working at improving the school? Or am I lightening the burden on the system by 3? And is the system beyond redemption, anyway? The same thoughts can be applied to both decisions, self-sufficiency and self-learning.

No answers from me, but I guess it is something we do give some thought to.

[Kfish]

The politics of self-sufficiency by Michael Allaby and Peter Bunyard (1980, Oxford University Press) is one of the best books on this topic I've ever read. One of the authors is a 'back to the land'er and the other is a social conservative. They take turns to write a chapter on a particular point, which the other one then argues against.

I don't think that self-sufficiency is in conflict with working for a better society at all. However, greater independence from society does raise the possibility of 'dropping out' altogether. The idea of deliberate withdrawal is so threatening to some people in society that even the development of skills that might one day make it possible is viewed as a minor betrayal.

One of my long-term aims is to get to the point where I can relate to my society on my terms, by choice rather than dependency. And really, isn't the choice to stay a sign of greater attachment than staying because you have to?

Magpie, I wasn't aware that you could home-school in NZ. My mother tried very hard to change my school from the inside (she worked there after I left) and I honestly believe that the bureaucracy can build up momentum that is difficult to work against.

Wombat, I take back nothing I've ever said about Sydney traffic! Thanks for the compliment.

[Wombat]

G'Day All,

Some of you from south of the equater like me may have heard of Mario and Lesley Zolin..............they opted out of society some thirty years ago and became self sufficient, down to the whole homeschooling bit. The produced a Newsletter called Gone Bush and then trimmed it down into a book - Self sufficiency in the 80's - which you see seconda hand a bit, so it must have been popular.

I corresponded with Mario for a while and seemed to evolve past the self sufficiency bit and is (as far as I know) back in the world. A very interesting man. But why am I telling you all this?

I saw an article by his son about 10 years ago and it was intersting from the kids point of view and the trouble that he had re-integrating back into society when the time came. He evidently had poor social skills and this caused considerble hassle for him. I suppose the point is that we should still maintain some form of community, even if total opt out is an option for us.

QED

Nev

As for Sydney traffic Kfish = I'm with you!

[Magpie]

I think my ideal is to be not relying on society for it's material trappings, but to still be woven into the community of people. I really like how home education allows the children to become part of the community again, instead of being locked up for weeks on end. My children know all the local shopkeepers, all the oldies out walking, all the bus-drivers... I guess if we were to drop-out completely, we would all suffer from the problems of re-socialising.

Kfish, it is relatively easy to be home educating here, you just need to apply for an exemption form school, and satisfy the Ministry that the children will be taught as regularly and as well as they would in a registered school. We unschool, which is not having any set curriculum at all, and totally allowing the children to direct their learning. Works for us!!

Wombat, those folks sound very interesting, I will be doing a Google after this. 8)

[Shelle]

I used to write for the only Aus survivalist magazine (that I am aware of) back in the late '70s early 80's.
Nev

Nev,
Can you point me to some information (or opinions) on what is happening here in Australia? I am reading so much about the US but i do not know how AUS is specifically affected by Peak Oil & other worldly factors - I can only speculate.
Shelle

[Kfish]

Dear Shelle,

Most of the big peak oil sites / forums I've seen on the Net are American-based, and as such tend to take American trends and assume the rest of the world will go the same way. Wolf at the Door is a UK site which I haven't visited.

James Kunstler, in his new book The Long Emergency, devotes about two lines to Australia's prospects and concludes that we'll kind of be okay if we don't get invaded. Somewhere on the Net is a Western Australia government paper discussing fuel shortages and their possible impact on WA. I believe Yahoo Australia has a peak oil chatgroup.

Hope this helps,

Kfish

p.s. Wombat, which magazine did you write for? I didn't know Australia had had a survivalist magazine.

[Wombat]

G'Day Shelle & Kfish,

I need to find out what the reserves in Bass Strait are like. I do know that Australian crude oil is "light" in that it is rich in the lighter fractions used to make petrol but does not have the heavier fractions which provide bitumen, waxes and lubricating oils - we get those from the heavier middle eastern crudes - so we may get some problems thee.

Kfish,

Back in 1981, two gentlemen in Canberra - messrs Foot and Tarplee started the F & T journal. Dennis Foot pulled out leaving Bill Tarplee to run it and it became the Austalasian Survivor. It ran for about 10 years and I became involved at about Issue 3 and became friends with Bill. After about 8 years it was taken over by another one of the major contributors - Geoff Hollins - who I was also friends with.

The magazine was sold by subscription only and (I think) had about 200 subscribers world wide, with most being in Aus, but a few in the US and UK. At one point I was going to start up a successor, but I wanted to let the existing subscribers know in the last issue of the Aus Survivor, which was never published . So there you have it.

There is an Aus survivalist site, but it has no connection with Bill or Geoff.

Nev