Male /female chauvanism

[Wombat]

Mrs Wombat and I do stuff together but for many years I attended spinning classes (as the only male) which she did not accompany me to because she was not interested.

I'm not sure what I am trying to say here but probebly that I need more sleep...

Nev

[theabsinthefairy]

I am not sure that the opening poster's talking about chauvanism but more exclusion. And personally I don't think that I would be very happy in any group that considered it acceptable to exclude others.

I sew and knit, garden, read, ride and fix motorbikes, chainsaw, weld and construct generally, and have competed for many years in off road 4x4 rally championships. I also like make up and shoes!

My husband sews, gardens, reads, rides and fixes motorbikes, chainsaws, welds and constructs, and has also competed for many years in off road 4x4 trials. He is not so interested in make up and shoes!

I have never had any trouble being accepted by a predominately male group of drivers or bikers, but my OH is uncomfortable in a female group of crafters, artists or jewelry makers, and often that is because they view him with such suspicion and even malevolence at times, as though he is intruding upon some secret hidden female rite.

[QuakerBear]

Hhhmm.

Sometimes I think there's no difference between men and women and that the biological differences are about as relevent as if someone has a big or a small nose, but then I think about how I actually live. Grew up in an all female house, university was all female college, classes & rooms. I try and go to female only swimming. I now work in an all male enviroment and to be honest I expect to be treated a little differently (i.e. not involved in the punching and puski-ing games).

It's odd sometimes I do feel allot freer in all female company, not just because I don't have to bother to cover up and certianly not because I view men as threatening. I certianly wouldn't exclude a male friend from an activity a myself and a group of female friends were doing and I wouldn't ever be unkind to a man who entered an existing all female enviroment. I suppose I'm just glad that by chance there are some envitoments that are all female.

I do understand how disgruntled men can be though. I was recently thinking about joining the WI as it looked like they did some good stuff in my area. I've decided not to because I've looked at their national course centre and there's loads of courses Mr. QB would like do but he can't 'cos he's a man. I understand the importance of women's education (educate the mother and you educate the home etc.) and I've worked in a girls after school club where men weren't even allowed on the premesis, but in this case I can see no valid reason for excluding men. It seems like they're just being elitist and saying, "boys smell, we're better then them and won't let them in our club".

Hhhmm.

[MKG]

Jeez, QB - I've tried to go female-only swimming and I'm a bloke. This is in the nature of things!!!! It's not about regulation or anything else except respect. Fun's fun, but the moment someone gets upset, the fun stops. I know some massive (HUGE) blokes who would rather die than upset their female friends (and would gladly kill anyone who didn't agree). Ask Old Tree Man - he knows what I'm saying, and could you possibly find a more gentle man?

Please - let's have a little less generalisation.

EDIT -- Sorry QB - that looks as if I aimed it at you, which I didn't. It's just a general plea for we hard-done-to non-considered guys.

[QuakerBear]

Lol MKG.

I think you're probably with Mr. QB on having contemplated trying to go to the all female swimming

For you and all the other chaps out there who are kind and considerate, thank you for being normal people, you are very much appreciated and loved.

[Ellendra]

A teacher once told me - You swear, when you lack the intelligence to find another word to fit the bill.

I had a teacher who used to say "Profanity is the mark of a conversational cripple."




I haven't run into the outright exclusion, but I have encountered the prevailing assumtion that a guy who is interested in "women's" activities must be gay, and a woman interested in "guy stuff" must be desperate for a man.

As a woman who has always been interested in a variety of things, including "guy stuff", I've been hit on a lot because they assumed it was the only reason I was there.

Then there've been times when they found out I was better at whatever it was, and left the group because they couldn't stand being shown up by a girl.

[GingerKatieSparkles]

Personally I think single sex groups are generally not necessary, although occasionally a group that doesn't include couples is useful just because you want to sound off about your oh without them there! Eg I go to a breastfeeding group which is typically women only (as you'd expect!) - it wouldn't bother me or change what I was willing to say if a man was there but it might if dh was there, iyswim - but that's just me (and him). However I'm used to a very mixed environment - I've generally been one of very few girls in very male environments, and have lots of male friends, if you weren't used to that it might be more intimidating. I don't buy into the "you need a group of women/men only", what you need is a group of people with shared experiences and interests - as it happens in our society that is often the same thing, but there's no need to make assumptions!

In the case of the op, I think if a meet is explicitly mentioned as men/women only, then I would look on it on a case by case basis - how much do you want to go and how upset is oh about not going? I wouldn't forbid dh from going to something just to make a point, iyswim, and I wouldn't go along anyway, because that would probably just upset everyone so I wouldn't have a very good time which is really the point. If it's just implied men/women only then I'd probably both go and see how it worked out. (As it happens dh is a bit of an introvert and so it'd just be me going anyway so all a bit academic :))

[Brij]

I don't have a partner, so this is all just theoretical for me, however as a young woman living in a (foreign!) capital city, there's another point of view to consider in this. That is, unfortunately, in some situations, some women find some men intimidating. That is not to say that I would want to be part of a group that actively excludes anyone, based on such basic grounds. I also do not mean that sometimes people don't find others threatening irrespective of gender. But, to play devil's advocate, I think that the morality of excluding any social group from any activity depends on the reasons for that exclusion.

For example, I would not say it is immoral for a swimming pool to have an all-ladies evening. However I do think it would be ridiculous for any hobby group that does not involve some activity which would cause people to feel particularly self-conscious or vulnerable to exclude anyone on the basis of gender.

Then there's the point that alot of older people (my grandma's nonagenarian neighbour, for one!) who have skewed visions of what gender (and therefore, unfortunately, personality) construes. But I think I should probably save such essays for you-nee-verse-itty!

[Milims]

Then there's the point that alot of older people (my grandma's nonagenarian neighbour, for one!) who have skewed visions of what gender (and therefore, unfortunately, personality) construes. But I think I should probably save such essays for you-nee-verse-itty!

I really have to agree with you on that one! My parents are in their 70's and some of the "sexist" things they have said to me have been really aweful! When I was working as an electrician my mothers comment was "that's very nice dear, but when are you going to get a proper job?" My parents have also said that my partner should not be left alone with my daughter because (simply by virtue of his gender) he could molest her.

[Brij]

Yeah. it's a real shame, but unfortunately we can't change the past... just make the future a bit better

[magenta flame]

A teacher once told me - You swear, when you lack the intelligence to find another word to fit the bill.

I had a teacher who used to say "Profanity is the mark of a conversational cripple."




I haven't run into the outright exclusion, but I have encountered the prevailing assumtion that a guy who is interested in "women's" activities must be gay, and a woman interested in "guy stuff" must be desperate for a man.

As a woman who has always been interested in a variety of things, including "guy stuff", I've been hit on a lot because they assumed it was the only reason I was there.

Then there've been times when they found out I was better at whatever it was, and left the group because they couldn't stand being shown up by a girl.

Oh I've been there and done that. Disgusting. and then you're called a trouble maker, and that's why women shouldn't be included in 'Man stuff'
Urghhhh it makes me so mad. And if you're good looking it's even worse. What really upsets me though is then the mens wives back them up .

[Smooth Hound]

so basically it seems that most replies to yhis are saying that it is ok for a bloke who is invited to take part in an activity that he knows is dear to his wifes heart, on the grounds that he wants to get a night out on his own, to havea laugh about his wife and generally enjoy himself, even though that leaves his wife at home on her own missing somethiing which she would have really enjoyed. well sorry to be too contriversial, but personally i believe that to be a very selfish bloke, who obviously puts his enjoyment well before anyone elses. and whats more if it were the other way round i would think exactly the same, and iwould never do that to someone i loved and chose to be with. but i suppose it would be a boring place if we were all the same in our expectations.

[magenta flame]

Uuuummmmm no I don't remember saying that.

See I consider myself my husbands 'mate' friend, confidante, etc. and if his other mates don't like one of my husbands mates being around (being me) then they aren't very good mates in the first place.

Hmmm there's a choice there I suppose.

[WiseBird]

absolutely...my husband and I spend nearly all of our time together, cooking, gardening etc etc but when it comes to hobbies we also support each others interests.

brian is into model aeronautical engineering (he builds and flies model aeroplanes!) and when we lived in Cheltenham, the model club frowned on me attending the meetings or even being on the flying field, because it was a 'mans' hobby (no female flying members)...so he didn't attend meetings and I just fronted it out on the field until they got to know me but it was alsways a little strained.

When we move to Dorset he joined another club, which was much friendlier and I got involved straight away by selling raffle tickets at meetings and fun days - a great way to get to talk to all of the group members. Sometimes it takes a bit of effort to let others know what they are missing out on by excluding certain sections of society - everyone has something valuable to offer.

I don't think either of us would want to attend a club that excluded the other...we simply wouldn't enjoy it anywhere near as much as if we could share the experiences.

Donna

[Super.Niki]

A teacher once told me - You swear, when you lack the intelligence to find another word to fit the bill.
:

See Billy Conolly says "I have a very wide vocabulary, but **** happens to be my favourite word!"... priceless!

I think it's a case of when/where the events/classes are taking place and with whom. I mean I see every reason for lads and lasses to have separate groups of (maybe/maybe not) single-sex friends. That's not to say that the wifey should not get on with the hubby's mates or vice-versa... but there's, personally, only a certain amount of living in another person's pocket I can take!... but then again I am not married... nor do I live with the bf...so it's good!

I'm in a mostly male class (be that there's around 60/70 people on the course... 4 of which are girls... including me...) so I'm used to hanging around with lads and becoming one of the lads (yes, joining in with swearing, drinking smoking, leary behavior and endless discussions about sex... which they are always happy to get a girl's opinion on!!) but then again it does get a bit too much and I get sick of being seen as "one of the lads" when actually I quite like my girlie side... so I guess I get the best of both worlds?

Having lived in two houses full of female strangers since September... I can say, I hate it! Am living with girls next year, but they are more tomboy than me plus there's going to be lads round all the time anyway! I think it's different girls... I mean I can be girlie (love makeup and have FAR too many shoes according to bf!!) but I'm not afraid to get dirty and greasy and fix something (although... dad gets rather petrified when he sees me with a hammer! ) but the first house I lived in with all girls (drama/arts students... oh dear, oh dear, oh dear...) was a hell-hole!! I don't know if was a constant state of PMT or whether they were just the extreme of girlie but.... the one thing I've NEVER managed to understand about girls is the bitchiness... I'm hoping girls grow out of it? I've been in lad's groups since I was a young'un and never understood bitchiness?!?

I guess what I'm trying to say (whilst going about it the long-winded way) is there should be give and take on either side and time for both genders to let their hair down a bit in the company of friends. I do not agree that we should share everything all the time (though, if you do, that's your choice and it may work for you... not for me though!) because, as much as I love being in lad's groups (skater hockey and my uni course are boys only most of the time!) I get a bit sick of being treated like "one of the lads" so I think there's a limit before we become agendered (is that a word? if not I've just made it up!:lol:) which is more dangerous than being totally segregated!!....

....does that make any sense... i really should sleep...!!

[edit: spelling... Billi!! hehe!!]