B&Q to stock chocolate teapots!

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Martin
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B&Q to stock chocolate teapots!

Post: # 35160Post Martin »

It is with great sadness that I have to report that messrs B&Q are going to be party to one of the biggest con-tricks since de Lorean! :roll:
They are going to be offering a roof-mounted turbine from 100 of it's stores -
ALL the experts in the field know that they can't possibly do what is claimed - do not be taken in! :cooldude:
We have done figures which show they will take anything from 160-550 years to pay back their cost - they will be noisy (imagine a rat gnawing in the dead of night, with added "clonks" from the furling gear in a high wind), will likely cause structural damage, and cannot possibly do what they claim! (a THIRD of the average family consumption? - more like less than a thirtieth!) :?
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Post: # 35161Post Martin »

firstly, from Paul Gipe, one of the leading experts on wind power, who wrote many of the text books!
http://www.wind-works.org/articles/Roof ... itain.html

A recent article in the Observer - http://observer.guardian.co.uk/cash/sto ... 54,00.html

And from High Piggott, generally accepted to be Britain's leading expert -
(scroll down his long front page to find his opinion) http://scoraigwind.com/
:cooldude:
http://solarwind.org.uk - a small company in Sussex sourcing, supplying, and fitting alternative energy products.
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Post: # 35162Post wulf »

Shucks! I was hoping that they were offering a novelty line of real chocoate tea pots. Actually, a chocolate coffee pot would be a better idea - instant mocha!

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Post: # 35165Post Stonehead »

Two key points:

1. The Windsave as sold by B&Q costs £1600, has a two-year warranty and a 10-year lifespan.

2. "David Gordon, chief executive of Windsave, also defends the performance claims. He says that even at four metres a second, the turbine will produce more than 500 kwH a year, taking £60 off the average bill. Consumers will also be eligible to get a green energy certificate worth £60 from the government, taking the annual value of the electricity up to £120: 'And that has to be worth having.' "

So, even with the artificial inflation in the value of the electricity provided by the green energy certificate, it would take 13 years and four months to the Windsave to pay for itself. Three years and four months after the end of its designed life.

It's strange that the media haven't picked that one up!

In actual fact, the payback would be considerably longer. I did my own calculations based on having our croft in a very windy location, using various claimed performance figures. The absolute best case scenario with consistent wind speeds day in, day out and the most optimistic performance figures still worked out to give a payback of 44 years!

Oh, and note that the grants are not currently tied to actual, real-world performance. That means the grants are there for business, not for end users.
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Post: # 35178Post Martin »

and if you add the fact that for every £400 awarded, the grants body will soak up at least another £600 to administer it! (based on Clearskies crap performance!) :geek:
AND, if you give Paul Gipe's suggestion of "£10 worth of electricity per year" being generated (which I think is over-generous!), I can give you a far simpler, and vastly cheaper alternative! :cheers:
Invest £1.99 in a 20w energy saving bulb, and replace a 100w ordinary light bulb with it - if you burn that for an average of 5 hours a day, that's 400 watt/hours a day you've saved! At 10p a unit, that's a saving of 4p a day - 4px365 = £14.60!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
So - buy a £1.99 energy saver bulb, trouser the other £1,598 you were about to waste, and do more good for the environment! :cheers:
http://solarwind.org.uk - a small company in Sussex sourcing, supplying, and fitting alternative energy products.
Amateurs encouraged - very keen prices and friendly helpful service!

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Post: # 35181Post Martin »

for Stoney - had a natter with the chief designer at Samrey the other day - they are bringing out a 2.5kw downwind design sometime next year - in a windy spot like yours, it should go like a dingbat, and pay back very swiftly (they're talking £1600-ish for the turbine - Chinese prices for a British designed and engineered product!):cooldude:
This would, of course, be properly mounted, either on a stayed mast, or a freestanding one, WELL away from obstructions, and NOT attached in any way to a dwelling! :cooldude:
http://solarwind.org.uk - a small company in Sussex sourcing, supplying, and fitting alternative energy products.
Amateurs encouraged - very keen prices and friendly helpful service!

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Post: # 36555Post the.fee.fairy »

the bloke who works opposite me worked out the B&Q turbine as 'needing a gale to generate enough energy to boil the water for 1/2 a cup of tea...that's a bloody expensive half cup of tea!'.

I did point out to him that he could make espresso instead, but he wasn't impressed. :lol:

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Post: # 36648Post Andy Hamilton »

I have been pondering over this post and working out what I think to B & Q selling this. I have come to the conclusion that it is good for two reasons, just 2 or 3 years ago there is no way that they would stock anything like this so even if it does not generate the power needed at least it is a step towards renewable energy being available for the mass market. The first TV's were over priced, there was hardly ever anything on and they had to warm up for ages before you even got a picture. Things do move on.

B&Q did get it wrong by selling these but lets hope that in the future much more economical ones are for sale.

Also if enought people buy them the combined power that they will take away from the grid must count for something. It it means that in the long run people are paying more for their electricity but it is much cleaner then won't this mean less nuclear power stations are needed?

Lastly with the way fuel prices are going these might end up paying for themselves. In 5-10 years electricity prices surley might double even treble their present price still pehaps making this a non profit turbine but the loss will be less.
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Post: # 36659Post Martin »

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! :?
Follow my drift.........you spend £1500 on a washing machine motor with some proprietary blades strapped on it - you mount it on your centre terrace house (-of 7) - according to Hugh Pigott, you'll be lucky to get £10 worth of electricity out of it per ANNUM - the "box of tricks" drains a constant 6w - 53kw/h over a year - so you have a net "gain" of £4.70 worth per annum - which gives around 400 years payback time! - add to that, neither you or your neighbours have had a moment's sleep while the wind is blowing (the noise DOES transmit into the structure, think gnawing rat, interspersed with "clonks" as it furls), and you will probably have major damage to your property to boot! They only have a predicted life of ten years (at BEST) during which time you may have "earnt" £40 for the next one!
It is a waste of time, energy, and the resources used to make the damned things! :dave:
To put it in perspective - replace one 100w bulb with a 20w energy saver - if used for 5 hours a day, it WILL save £15 pa - over three times what a teapot can do! - At £1.99, a real steal - trouser the other £1498, and put it towards something that works! :wink:
http://solarwind.org.uk - a small company in Sussex sourcing, supplying, and fitting alternative energy products.
Amateurs encouraged - very keen prices and friendly helpful service!

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Post: # 36661Post Andy Hamilton »

Andy Hamilton wrote:, just 2 or 3 years ago there is no way that they would stock anything like this so even if it does not generate the power needed at least it is a step towards renewable energy being available for the mass market.
This point still holds true does it not?
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Post: # 36664Post Martin »

it's a very BAD start! - if they had used their enormous buying power to provide really good, cheap renewables, I would be applauding them for popularising technologies dear to my heart! - Instead, they've been caught up in the "deLorean of the noughties" fairy tale! :roll:
I think the following explains it all in fairly reasonable detail - it's a copy of one of the emails I exchanged with our local trading standards office - they'd asked me to "elucidate" - they have already responded and "enquiries are underway" :cooldude:

"Dear xxxx,
in words of one syllable - they are telling a pack of lies to sell them. Picking just one at random - they claim on their literature that you WILL get 30% of your electricity from one in an urban area - this is arrant nonsense, which defies the laws of physics!
To expand a little - for a wind turbine to work satisfactorily it must be in clear and non-turbulent air - windspeed over a roof is both slow and turbulent - one of the links below will take you to a somewhat tatty webpage - that of Hugh Piggott - generally recognised as THE leading authority on windpower in the country - and he measured the average windspeed over his own roof in Edinburgh for a year - his house, if you look it up on the "NOABL" database suggests 6-7m/s (looked upon as a very good windspeed!) - at roof level, it is under 1.9m/s! (most turbines don't even start turning until well above that!)
Windsave are suggesting that all people have to do is look up their home on the database, and that tells them if it's suitable - this is a blatant lie!
The same expert has worked out that in a year, one of these contraptions MAY generate about £10 worth of electricity..........which is FAR different from the blatant "30%" claim - I would suggest 2-3% if you're lucky!
In simple terms, over almost every roof in Britain there is not enough wind to have the energy removed from it to give the amounts of power they suggest! (in direct contravention of several rules of physics!)
Next we have more misleading claims - they claim "noise absorbing mountings" - there is no such thing! - any turbine affixed to a wall or roof ~WILL transmit substantial noise into the structure - you would not get any sleep on a windy night, unless profoundly deaf! (all of the roof mounted turbines I've seen are "stopped" or tied off for exactly this reason!). Following discussions with our local planners, I doubt anyone will get consent in this area - they are well aware of the noise problems - not so much from the blades, but the transmission into dwelling structures (it's very like a rat gnawing at a beam!).
They are also extremely concerned (as are we) that the forces involved on tiny insubstantial mountings will mean that some will pull out of the wall, and do major structural damage!
This "chocolate teapot" is a heartless con - you shell out £1500, thinking you're "doing your bit" for the environment - in a year, it may generate £10 - worth of electricity - the "inverter box" burns 53kw/h per annum - about £5.30 - so in a year, you MAY "save" £4.70p!
(ONE 18w energy saving bulb substituted for a 100w bulb will save £15 pa, if run for 5 hours a day) - buy a £1.99 bulb, and save 3 times more energy than £1500 worth of Windsave!

Anyway, don't take my word for it, here's the links - the first is to Hugh Piggotts "windspeed in the city" page - http://www.scoraigwind.com/citywinds/

the rest of Hugh's site - don't be misled by his lousy webdesign - this chap wrote many of the textbooks, and devised some of the test standards - if you scroll down the page, you'll see that he "names names" - you have to be VERY sure of your facts before you do that!-
http://www.scoraigwind.com/

Next, a recent article in the Observer
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/cash/sto ... 54,00.html

And another from North America's Paul Gipe (he wrote the other text books!)
http://www.wind-works.org/articles/Roof ... itain.html

To be frank, there are times that I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall - EVERY expert in the field knows they're a con, the trade forums are buzzing with angry people in the renewables industry - this will do the renewables business a great deal of harm, and will leave a great many disappointed people in it's wake!

I hope you can do something to stop this in it's tracks - I'm beginning to suspect that the whole thing is a "flotation" exercise - the guy has been accepting "orders" over the net for 2 years, and is now doing the same thing through B&Q - I suggest he'll sell out very shortly on the strength of the "paper value" of the company, and leg it for the horizon with several million pounds in his back pocket before the **** hits the fan! (intentional pun!).

kind regards, Martin

ps, to put this in perspective, our stock reply on receiving an enquiry for an urban wind turbine is "unless you can obtain planning consent for a tower of at least 100' to put it up out of the turbulence, we're sorry, it just won't work!" - and neither we, nor any other reputable company will roof or wall-mount a turbine - we know the problems!"
http://solarwind.org.uk - a small company in Sussex sourcing, supplying, and fitting alternative energy products.
Amateurs encouraged - very keen prices and friendly helpful service!

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Post: # 36696Post Stonehead »

Andy Hamilton wrote:I have been pondering over this post and working out what I think to B & Q selling this. I have come to the conclusion that it is good for two reasons, just 2 or 3 years ago there is no way that they would stock anything like this so even if it does not generate the power needed at least it is a step towards renewable energy being available for the mass market. The first TV's were over priced, there was hardly ever anything on and they had to warm up for ages before you even got a picture. Things do move on.

B&Q did get it wrong by selling these but lets hope that in the future much more economical ones are for sale.

Also if enought people buy them the combined power that they will take away from the grid must count for something. It it means that in the long run people are paying more for their electricity but it is much cleaner then won't this mean less nuclear power stations are needed?

Lastly with the way fuel prices are going these might end up paying for themselves. In 5-10 years electricity prices surley might double even treble their present price still pehaps making this a non profit turbine but the loss will be less.
It's just an expensive way of salving middle-class "green" consciences and it's the way double-glazing has been foisted on everyone. Yes, the orginal idea was, and is, sound. But saying that a dodgy product sold using mass marketing is better than nothing is a load of rot and just a new way of exploiting the gullible.

Instead of buying one of these, change all your electric lightbulbs for low-energy bulbs, insulate your house, put heavy curtains or shutters on your windows, turn off all the things on standby, only use the lights you actually need, and turn your heating thermostat down.

You'll save more more energy, spend less money and still feel good about what you're doing, while also directing what money you do spend away from a large corporation.
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Post: # 36747Post Andy Hamilton »

Ok I stand down corrected.
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Post: # 36763Post Stonehead »

Andy Hamilton wrote:Ok I stand down corrected.
I think you walked into an ambush there...

Next time, wear your armoured jock strap! :mrgreen:
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Post: # 36774Post Andy Hamilton »

It is good to walk into these debates with nothing but a headfull of ideals, rather like the people walking into B&Q at the moment.
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