Freeish toilet water

[Preventer]

Not the splash-it-all-over stuff, more the pay-to-get-it-then-pay-to-get-rid-of-it type of water.

We've been collecting rain water for years. Outside water butts adding up to about 2 cubic meters (2 000 litres, 220 gallons) but because of frosts we couldn't start collecting before the end of march and had to dump what was left somewhere around october. Last year I dumped easily about 100 gallons, half a cubic metre. Waste. Then got the water bill. 150 cubic metres per year for 3 adults. Major uses are toilets, clothes washer and dish washer. Thinks. Easiest to sort is the toilet.

Let's start easy and cheap. Bring the butts inside so they don't freeze - an odd corner of the cellar but if you don't have a cellar think of the garage, the bathroom or even the bedroom. Or an insulated shed outside. Use garden hose to pipe from gutters to butts. Now to get it up to the toilet when you need it.

An old submersible pump (the cellar used to flood until we started to collect the rain water. A drainage problem, since fixed by collecting the rain water so we now have a spare pump) dropped into one of the water butts.

Connect pump to toilet cistern with garden hose. All inside the house so no frozen pipes. They are plastic anyway so won't burst.

So, down pipe to water butt in cellar, pump in butt to toilet cistern. How to get cistern full after a flush ? I thought about detectors and automatic refilling, pressurised system ... but that would have cost money. So : "you empty it, you fill it" A switch for the pump by the side of the toilet. You flush, then switch the pump on. It takes about 15-20 seconds to fill the cistern. Time to wash your hands. When you hear the overflow start then switch the pump off. Done. One free flush.

Items bought : 25 metres of garden hose, one three pin socket, one three pin plug. Other material : rain butts brought in from outside, pump not used for a few years, odd bits of three-core cable found in the cellar.

Still a few problems like :

* automatic filling of cellar butt from outside. Right now I have to turn on a tap. Hope to fit a ball valve,
* deep frosts which will stop collection/flow from outside. Will still have to dump the outside butt but wouldn't normally have collected it in that season anyway
* lack of rain water, butts empty. Mains water is still connected to the cistern. If the butt is empty you just have to turn on a valve at the side of the cistern.

Any suggestions for clothes and dishwasher ? Which will need some pressure while machines are running. And I have no room for a header tank.

Haven't done the economics yet but at least I'm having a free pee.

[pumpy]

Why not connect the pump to a good-ol'-fashioned pressure vessel? This could then supply both cistern & wash machine, provided that you have enough water,that is. I have been looking at setting up a similar system for our place. Tho' there may be an initial layout of finances, it has to be beneficial in the long-term. I don't see a problem with water quality from a butt....... in fact, our pets all prefer the butt water to the mains, for drinking.

[Preventer]

pumpy, good idea about a pressurised tank but that would mean I would have to buy or scrounge one.

Catalan, I know I have an old pond-fountain pump somewhere out there. I'll try connecting it to the clothes washer which is sitting right next to the indoors water butts.

Thanks

[Preventer]

The small pump didn't work. It pumped in ok when the electrovalve (?) opened but didn't seem to have enough pressure to close it again. I see it can only throw a jet up to 2m which I make a pressure of about 1/5 of an atmosphere. I'll try something a bit stronger.

[Preventer]

I bought (!) a new pump today, cost about £25, installed it and ran through a clothes wash. Seems to work ok. This one would pump a head to over 5 metres, so about 1/2 of an atmosphere, about 7psi, compared to the pond pump at 2psi.

So, toilet plumbed in. Clothes washer plumbed in. Dishwasher to do. Now I either go for complicated wirng/plumbing to get it all off the same pump, or I just put in another pump and a length of hose.

I haven't found any automatic level detectors/switches so at the moment it all means switching on individual pumps when you need them. And then off again when you remember.

[red]

I'd like to get something liek this set up

do you have any kind of filter to stop debris getting in..?

[Big Al]

I bought (!) a new pump today, cost about £25, installed it and ran through a clothes wash. Seems to work ok. This one would pump a head to over 5 metres, so about 1/2 of an atmosphere, about 7psi, compared to the pond pump at 2psi.

So, toilet plumbed in. Clothes washer plumbed in. Dishwasher to do. Now I either go for complicated wirng/plumbing to get it all off the same pump, or I just put in another pump and a length of hose.

I haven't found any automatic level detectors/switches so at the moment it all means switching on individual pumps when you need them. And then off again when you remember.

Be careful when thinking of the dishwasher as you need to filter the water to remove biological nasties. This is the same as for using the water for drinking and bathing / washing.

For a simple designed sand box filter go here http://tilz.tearfund.org/Publications/F ... filter.htm .

HTH

Big Al

[Preventer]

Big Al, Red,

Biological nasties. I hadn't bothered with a filter yet. Freeish rain water was originally planned just for the bog, so no worries about dead leaves and moss off the roof (there were a few and my wife said eeeugh, but I got away with saying it's just the toilet !)

But you are right about the sand filter. I can do that with an old dustbin with a plastic bag liner and a couple of hose connectors. But I would have to BUY the sand. No beach within 300 miles. Will probably slow-down/even-out the flow. I certainly don't want to put in a commercial filter. (that costs actual money) Any filter would have to be on the in-from-the-roof gravity-fed side, not up-to-the-appliance pumped side. Don't want anything that would reduce pressure. Which seems a bit critical for the appliances.

So. Where are we today ? Bog is ok. Everyone used to switching on the pump to re-fill the toilet cistern. (visitors prefer to use the other, traditional, bog (flush and it fills itself from mains water)(why do we use potable water to flush the bog ?) clolthes washing seems ok. (No filter required as I don't suck my woolies) but we are going to test "washing nuts".

Leaves the dish-washer. Usually run at least twice per day. Executive decision last night : (Carols's) : hand wash breakfast and lunch. Machine wash at night (alright, so the reallyreally deep green amongst us might say "always hand wash" but we have this machine. Do you like washing up ? And who does it. You or her ?

If the answer is "her" then go suck your woolie.

Off to the DIY shop later. A few electricals (plug/socket and a clear polyethylene hose pipe. (fluorescent green across the back of the loo is not really aesthetic. Says Carol) And, bugger it (does this site, do the minotaurs of this site, allow the odd expletive ?) I'm going to have to buy yet another pump. "Freeish" changes to "cheapish".

[theabsinthefairy]

I appreciate that our set up is not quite the same, but we have a rainwater collection system for the toilet flush.

The butts sit in the barn next to the house, and we have our bathroom on the ground floor.

The water has a 'drop' of about a metre to the toilet cistern so no need to pump or force the flow in any way gravity does the job just fine, and there is no need for any sort of switch or tap as the ball cock in the cistern cuts off the flow just fine.

We don't have a dishwasher - my PERSONAL opinion (not scientific or result based just personal) is that they are unnecessary and wasteful - but we have used our plumbing set up to feed the washing machine direct from the header tank fed by our Rayburn and solar panel and bypassed the heater controls so the machine does no electric heating at all and washes at the temperature of the tank.

We also have a bucket and use bathwater to flush and that first flow of cold water before the hot kicks in.

We struggled with the water butts freezing in the first year so we now have a mains supply backup in case, but have not struggled since as I have taken to storing my hay around the butts and that helps to insulate them.

The 'out' pipe has a small mesh grill on the inside of the tub to prevent debris coming down the pipe, and every now and again I add a bit of bleach to the tanks to keep them clean and smell free, although this is in summer more when the water is warmer and tends to sit around a bit longer in the tanks (more bathwater flushes in summer to conserve water).

Well done preventer - water conservation feels good when you look at your bill!!!

Monika

[Preventer]

Absinthe, (surely, I can't call you fairy)

We live a bit north from you. Not far from Pontarlier, the ancestral home of the absinthe fairy. So a bit colder on average (we have known -30C when the bushes froze off at ground level)

We had one main collecter outside butt of 500 litres which overflowed to 4 x 300 butts. Winter freezing split a couple of the butts a few years ago so, like the end of last year, we dumped them all at the end of november. Which hurt, as well as giving me wet socks.

So now all the 300s are in the cellar. Just have to watch the still-outside 500 for freezing. I did think of connecting the 500 direct to the loo flush but wasn't sure how much head it needed to action the ball valve (1 metre head available) Probably ok but went for the electric pump and seems ok.

Clothes washer is also working ok. About 50 L per wash and as I don't suck my woolies I'm ok about the dilute pigeon poo. I still need to fit a ball valve between the 500 and the inside 300s. Too many leaks on the first try.

160 M3 last year at 2,50/m3 plus taxes came to close to 400e. So that's my budget/target.

Do you keep the livestock indoors to save on central heating ? Our two cats won't add that many therms.

[theabsinthefairy]

Hi

We are quite high up so have found winters in the mid minus 20s here too, although being on the side of a valley facing the Puy de Dome does have its compensations too - summers in the high 30s!!!!


Our livestock is outside - we are not quite that French yet - although having visited a few cow barns in the dead of winter the heat in there has been luxurious.

Our water bill last year was for 44m3 and for this year will be for 52m3 - the poor functionaire had to come three times to read it because he did not believe it!

We also lost water butts when they froze - but not to the cold - to the ducks who had leart how to open the water taps at the bottom, we did not notice and when the water ran out the ice monster dropped and split the tubs, so I cut them in half and have used them as deep planters and composters around the edge of the garden.

And you may call me Monika!

[Preventer]

Monika et al,

Still peering at me waters. Got the toilet and the clothes washer plumbed in and all working fine. Now looking at grey water. I can drop from the washer straight in to the tank that serves the toilet and could, when the weather warms up. Eventually (+2 today) pump it out to the garden. So that water is used/reused twice.

Had a look at the plumbing from bathroom and kitchen. Bath, shower and handbasin in bathrom all run down a plastic pipe in to the cellar before joining the main (black) drains. So I can easily divert that into the "toilet" tank. But kitchen sink and dish washer join the main drain somewhere behind a tiled wall. I suppose I could dig in behind the kitchen units and cut in to the plastic down pipe but it seems a bit like too much hard work. For now. And I'm likely to end up with more grey water than I can use or store.

On another site (itsnoteasybeinggreen) someone talked about an enzyme product for "purifying" grey water. comes from Hoselock. Anyone know of a French source for that ?

Had to empty the outside tank on Friday as -7°C was forecast. And happened. Today is +2 to +5. Despite warm air temperature it snowed this morning and we ollected about 300 litres of run-off from the roof.

nearly full

[theabsinthefairy]

Hi preventer

I see no reason why you could not divert the bathroom grey water to toilet flushing - we also use ours to water the garden, as we only use very gentle and minimal amounts of septic tank friendly products these are not toxic to the veggies.

But in terms of the kitchen waste water - this tends to be greasier and carry more contaminant, and I am not sure that I would want to risk running this through pipes where it could coagulate and set and then require cleaning, and for this reason, we crockery wash in a bowl and throw this water out separate. If you try to leave it sat around it goes 'off' VERY quickly and stinks!

I understood that if you were on mains drains in France your water bill carries an automatic charge for sewerage - are you saving enough money by your grey water captures for it to be worth it - this is not being critical I am just interested in the viability - apart from the obvious 'green' benefits of not wasting water!

Regards

Monika

(also anticipating -9 and -10 for the weekend again - but hopefully some sunny days!)

[Preventer]

Monika,

you are right about kitchen sink water, probably a bit too much solids, though I would like to plumb in the dishwasher. Not too difficult - just pull the machine out, connect to a pipe, run pipe behind 3 metres of kitchen units, through two walls and down to the cellar. Eh voila !

I've been worrying about grey water starting to smell if not used up within a few days. Had a look around the local septic tank suppliers for something organic to purify(ish) the water. Nothing there. Then found something organic in the aquarium section which is supposed to clean dirty pond water. And be kind to your koi. Should be kind to the cabbages too. I'll give it a try. Not yet as, with last night's rain, (+3 C right now) we are almost totally full up. About 2 m3. No need for grey water yet. May need it for the long, hot, dry summer we are all expecting.

bought seed potatoes (agatha) this morning. I'll put them out for chitting later.

First snowdrops showing through the remaining snow. Spring !

Merv

[Big Al]

Monika et al,

Still peering at me waters. Got the toilet and the clothes washer plumbed in and all working fine. Now looking at grey water. I can drop from the washer straight in to the tank that serves the toilet and could, when the weather warms up. Eventually (+2 today) pump it out to the garden. So that water is used/reused twice.

Had a look at the plumbing from bathroom and kitchen. Bath, shower and handbasin in bathrom all run down a plastic pipe in to the cellar before joining the main (black) drains. So I can easily divert that into the "toilet" tank. But kitchen sink and dish washer join the main drain somewhere behind a tiled wall. I suppose I could dig in behind the kitchen units and cut in to the plastic down pipe but it seems a bit like too much hard work. For now. And I'm likely to end up with more grey water than I can use or store.

On another site (itsnoteasybeinggreen) someone talked about an enzyme product for "purifying" grey water. comes from Hoselock. Anyone know of a French source for that ?

Had to empty the outside tank on Friday as -7°C was forecast. And happened. Today is +2 to +5. Despite warm air temperature it snowed this morning and we ollected about 300 litres of run-off from the roof.

nearly full

Don't forget if you keep grey water for too long it goes bad with a capital B so needs to be syphoned out at regular interrvals. Also on INEBG or the new version of newhouse farm forum.