Bread Making.

[grahamhobbs]

Well done Jill, glad it worked out well. Pleased that you instinctively realised your mistake rather than just ploughing on - sign of a good baker!

[JillStephens7]

Thanks Graham, though to be honest it was so unmistakably wrong I reckon even a penguin would have spotted it

[grahamhobbs]

Jill, you can of course use the poolish method with your normal bread making. Also try putting the dough in the fridge overnight, it all adds to the flavour.

[JillStephens7]

you can of course use the poolish method with your normal bread making.

Hmm, I was wondering about that ... am I still aiming for a 100:70 ratio with normal bread?

Would I just leave it for its second rise once shaped as normal (after knocking back from the approx 4 hour rise), if you see what I mean?

Jill

[grahamhobbs]

Jill, the amount of water can be varied depending on the style of bread you are after. Personally I work in the range of 100 flour to between 65 and 75 water. This is the range between fairly normal loaves (including baguettes) to that of chiabatta. (Beigals or Bagels go as low as 55). More water tends to mean bigger holes in the bread, so no good for a loaf for making sandwiches, but makes nice chewy bread.

So between 65 and 70 is fine, 66 is good because that is 2/3rds, easy to work out.

Yes, you can knock back in the normal way.

[pelmetman]

Hi Julie

As mentioned before I used to make hand made bread for many years until having problems with my shoulders, neck ,arms etc. so bought a bread maker which I soon got rid of as I wasn't happy with it.

I used to make a recipe of Delia's but this evening have decided to have a go again and try your recipe. Will leave over night for first rise so will let you know tomorrow how I get on.
Sue x

[Plotter]

I have just got some wholemeal spelt flour to try for bread. Has anybody got any experience or advice for me? Any pitfalls to avoid or tips to make an edible loaf. I am concerned it may turn out too heavy, what is your spelt experience?

[The Riff-Raff Element]

I have just got some wholemeal spelt flour to try for bread. Has anybody got any experience or advice for me? Any pitfalls to avoid or tips to make an edible loaf. I am concerned it may turn out too heavy, what is your spelt experience?

I'm afraid my experience was of bread that could be used to stone people to death UNTIL! I started mixing 50/50 with strong wheat flour and all was fine & dandy. Nice nutty flavour too.

[pelmetman]

Hi Julie

Baked bread today, very pleased with result, nice texture. The only thing is, I won't use so much salt next time, just personal preference as we try to really cut back on salt for health reasons.

[JillStephens7]

Hi Plotter, I love spelt flour but only use 100% wholemeal spelt for baking these days, lovely in apple cake. Did find it ultra heavy when I did 100% wholemeal spelt loaf but white spelt wasn't as bad. Maybe it's just me though, as you probably need better technique to make spelt loaves lighter and my technique's only just coming together. Good luck, it's my favourite flour for flavour

[Mullein]

In the spirit of sharing mistakes so we can all learn from them...

Tried Julie's recipe for the first time yesterday:
1 - I used brown seeded flour cos it was all I had - not sure if it was 'strong' or not
2 - very excited by the first proving - it was huge an all bubbly
3 - spurred on by all the excitement I knocked it back and set it on the bunker and went to bed
4 - got up the the morning and had a big flat pancake at it had risen too much and collapsed :o(

I now know that I probably should just have left it longer on the first rise and knocked it back in the morning.

So, last night, before I went to bed I knocked up a batch using cheap white flour. risen well this morning - knocked it back and set it to rise again. 3 hours later, put it in the oven VERY EXCITED!!! Looks great - 6 minutes to go...

A couple of questions:
Why are we supposed to brush it with water after 10 mins? I left this bit out cos I was scared it would collapse on me again...
Why do we knock it back to let it rise again? What would happen if you just baked it after the first rise?

What a great thread - this should be written up as an article. It is as mega useful as MKG's wine one!

Cx

[grahamhobbs]

Mullien, remember if your bread has risen too early for you to deal with you can put it in the fridge. Not knocking back until the morning as you suggested would not be any better, your dough would have still overproved on the first rise. Once overproved you can't really do anything about it.

You can bake after the initial rise, but knocking back and allowing it to rise again achieves a number of things but probably most importantly it improves the structure and texture of the bread. Although I'm sure there is a more scientific explanation about the chemical reactions between the gluten, sugars and yeast, etc.

An alternative to slowing things down by putting the dough in the fridge is to use less yeast and/or use cold water. Obviously you have to play around with the variables to get the timing of the rise to suit your schedule.

I'm currectly using a refrigerated mix of flour and water (no yeast) and then adding a small quantity of a natural leaven starter in the morning. This delays the rise until the evening when I get home, when I knock back and let rise again, baking late evening. Previously I would use miniscule amounts of yeast and cold water and the rise would take about 18 hours. These long fermentations increase the flavour significantly.

Brushing with water is I believe to delay the setting of the crust, permitting a greater rise in the oven but also ultimately creating a crispier crust. Most people either spray water into the oven or create steam by pouring water into a hot pan at the bottom of the oven rather than brushing the bread directly.

[JillStephens7]

Hello Mullein Hope your bread was tasty.

I now sometimes brush with water and someteimes don't. Brushing with water after 10 mins then with milk straight out of the oven, I have found makes a softer crust which is nice for sandwiches and toast ie you can cut it without being bathed in a shower of crumbs!

For crusty crunchy ciabatta style bread to go with soup, as garlic baguette or as crunchy fresh slices to go with salad, I don't brush with water or milk at all, or just with milk when it comes out as it does make it nice and sweet.

Oh, I also now use double the oil in Julie's recipe as I did it by mistake when doing a half batch and really liked it.
Happy cooking
xx

[Mullein]

Once overproved you can't really do anything about it.

yep I did try to bake the first batch but it was the yeasty brick that Julie talked about...

My second attempt was much much better - a little sweet for my taste but getting the routine down pat is the main thing and then I can play with flavours. (If I roll it out before the second rise and stick some Rosemary and salt on it will I have focaccia?) I'll definitely look at using the fridge to get into a workable routine - that's a great tip.

I am just sooo excited that I can do this with cheap flour as we're essentially trying to do this at the moment to save money and buying 'bread flour' isn't much cheaper than buying a loaf. And its easier to play about with changes without being worried about wasting too much money. Great ideas for modifying the recipe Jill! I'm going to have fun with this...

Thanks you guys! Homemade bread and homemade wine - homegrown veg and we're sorted!

[grahamhobbs]

Mullien, yes you are right about focaccia, but it's better if you up the water to flour ratio by weight to 70 - 75 to 100 (normal bread about 65-70 to 100).

To save money, don't use yeast simply save 10 or 20% of your dough and use it as a starter for your next batch of dough (you can keep it in the fridge until needed) or make a natural leaven (soughdough). Either will improve the flavour of your bread.