The wonderful new Elderflower champagne

[trinder]

Just to say thank you. I opened a bottle of the recipe published in the Guardian it was so bubbly I only managed to get 3 glasses the rest bubbled out too quickly for me. It was not sweet so I knew all the sugar had turned to alcohol. It was nice and clear. thanks again x

[Andy Hamilton]

What my one? Good to hear its being used!

[lydneyian]

I must be doing something wrong - i only put it in demijohns yesterday - and tbh - i think that was too early cos its buubbling in the demi johns

[MKG]

It's supposed to bubble in the demijohn, lydneyian - that's the initial fermentation which gives you the basic elderflower wine. It's that later addition of sugar syrup which provides the fizz in the bottles and turns your ordinary wine into the champagne version.

Mike

[trinder]

yes Andy your one. xx thank you.

[lydneyian]

Yes I understand that Mike - but as per the recipe (and conversations with yourself) I was leaving it in the bucket till it stopped bubbling (or so I thought) and then putting it in demijohns to ferment fully - but it started to fizz again. I wont add the sugar till I bottle - however I believe that the fermentation will take about 3 months - based on what Andy said in a reply about the recipe - Trinder has managed the whole process in a couple of months.

By the way - should it stay cloudy in the demijohns or will it clear?

ian

[MKG]

Ah - I see what you're saying now. Right - stage 1 of any fermentation is when the yeast uses any dissolved oxygen (plus that at the surface of the liquid) to multiply, going from the thousands of cells you actually put in to several million cells. During this stage (24 to 48 hours) you'll see very little activity - but it is happening. When the oxygen is used up, the yeast goes over to its anaerobic phase in which alcohol and carbon dioxide are produced. At some point, yeast activity will stop - but that yeast is NOT dead. When you transferred from the bucket to the demijohn, more oxygen was introduced. The toughest yeast cells use that to multiply and, guess what, they then begin to extract the last remnant of sugar from your wine - hence extra bubbling.

It often happens, unless you use metabisulphite (Campden tablets) when you're doing the transfer - not desirable at all with this recipe. Just wait a while.

Incidentally, the same thing can happen at the bottling stage, when you definitely do NOT normally want it. That's why I'm constantly harping on about not bottling too early unless (as in this case) you actually want that to happen.

Mike

EDIT: The cloudiness is yeast cells in suspension. It will clear when all fermentation activity has ceased (and transferring it to a cool place will speed the clearing up).

[lydneyian]

Thanks as usual Mike

So does that mean i need to bottle it before it goes clear otherwise there will be no active yeast for the second fermentation?

Ian

[MKG]

Damn good question!!!

I think, as it's Andy's recipe, he should answer that one (he says, slipping neatly sideways).

I would have thought that as he says to wait until the fermentation has finished, it's any time between the cessation of bubbling and total clearing. If it was me, I'd wait until there's only a very little hint of a haze from yeast and then do the business. But even with an apparently clear wine, there are still going to be yeast cells held in suspension - just not very many. But as you're then going to introduce more sugar in the bottles, those very few cells will multiply, ferment the sugar, and then drop down to the bottom of the bottle (most naturally sparkling wines will have thrown a small deposit).

That's how I'd do it. Over to Andy ...

Mike

[lydneyian]

HHmm unless Andy advises otherwise (he is on another thread - so I may go on there and ask the question) my gut feeling is to wait for the bubbling to stop and for the clearing to just start - I have 2 demijohns so maybe I will experiment slightly - not too much though - its all to precious for me to ruin :-).

Incidently - the first demijohn I filled - has only about a quarter of the bubbling of the second - (both from the same bucket) any thought s on this - I thought it was one of those things and probably has slightly higher yeast or sugar content - is there a possibility that on could be ready before the other??

Ian

[MKG]

Oh absolutely. One of the things you'll very soon discover is that two lots of wine made under exactly the same circumstances from exactly the same ingredients to exactly the same recipe - even at exactly the same time and originally together in exactly the same bucket - can behave as though they were made on different planets.

It's all part of the joy

Mike

[lydneyian]

So Mike - based on that - I have started a second batch - using dried flowers that I had as back up - probably more of them - I gave the yeast more time with 50 ml of sugared water before adding it to the must - probably 20 minutes as opposed to e few minutes last time - and the room is 3 or 4 degrees warmer (natural conditions) - This time it is REALLY bubbling - more like what i expected the first time round - Im now wondering if this 5 week younger batch will be ready b4 the original batch - Im takeing bets with my partner - whats your thoughts :-)

Ian

[MKG]

Hmmmm ... 5 weeks? That's a hell of a start. It could happen, but I think you might lose your bet

Mike

[lydneyian]

what should a hydrometer read before bottling for a second fermentation?

[lydneyian]

Mike - Ive made a second batch - as mentioned earlier on this thread - it is in both demijohns nearly clear now but still bubbling like very fizzy pop but with very fine bubbles

Any thoughts?