un-vaccinated children

[gregorach]

"The data was collected from parents with vaccine-free children via an internet questionnaire by vaccineinjury.info and Andreas Bachmair, a German classical homeopathic practitioner."

So that'll be a completely representative and unbiased sample with rigorous and consistent diagnostic criteria then... After all, what could be more reliable for resolving complex questions in epidemiology than an internet questionnaire?

Oops, I've just rolled my eyes so hard that one of them's fallen out.

[MKG]

Interesting and illuminating discussion.

I (and my then wife) chose not to vaccinate either of our daughters (twice, in the late 70s and early 80s). The reasoning behind that was that we did not have enough real evidence to make up our minds either way, so taking a positive action and going for vaccination was something which, if it turned out to be wrong, neither of us could imagine surviving in one piece. I'll point out at this point that both daughters survived and have gone on to very successful lives.

I'm a skeptic (spelled that way so that no-one can read it as septic). I don't mean the normal (and wrong) interpretation of that word. I neither believe nor disbelieve until I've seen good evidence for one argument or another. I may not like the conclusions that attitude pushes me towards sometimes, but that's skepticism for you. And, speaking from my skeptic position, I find that there is no good evidence, even now, prompting me to believe that vaccination will not harm my children.

This is the point, I think. The evidence I would be looking for is not for efficacy (and there is loads of evidence for the efficacy of vaccination) but rather that seemingly negative thing - if I allow my child to be vaccinated, is there any evidence that my decision could irrevocably damage my child?

I suspect you know where I'm going with that. But I would like to add that taking the decision away from parents by making vaccination mandatory is a sure way of inducing guilt-related psychoses throughout the community. OK - some parents wouldn't know evidence from a cow's backside, but taking responsibility away from them is a step on the road to totalitarianism. No thanks.

Mike

[gregorach]

I find that there is no good evidence, even now, prompting me to believe that vaccination will not harm my children.

All medical procedures, including vaccination, carry risks. The question here is how the relative risks of action and inaction weigh up against each other. The risk of serious complications from measles is (IIRC) somewhere in the 1-in-1000 range, the risk of serious adverse effects from vaccination are much lower. As in orders of magnitude lower.

Humans are notoriously poor risk estimators.

[MKG]

Oh, agreed, Dunc. Now imagine your feelings when you fall foul of the relative risk. Do you just shrug your shoulders and say "Well, the numbers were on my side"?

I couldn't see myself at the time doing that, and I completely understand why anyone couldn't see themselves doing it now.

Mike

[oldjerry]

[quote="gregorach"

The question here is how the relative risks of action and inaction weigh up against each other.


Well yes,but that doesn't take into consideration the inherent irrationality of human nature.For me,there is a huge difference between the possibility of my children suffering from some common illness that you'd have to be seriously unlucky to be killed by,and their being damaged by something they could perhaps have done without, that I was responsible for inflicting them with.

[Zech]

taking a positive action and going for vaccination was something which, if it turned out to be wrong, neither of us could imagine surviving in one piece.

This approach is something that has been studied by psychologists using questions such as, "Imagine that a runaway train was heading for a group of five people. You could pull a lever to divert the train so that it would only kill one person instead of five. Do you pull the lever?" Most people would not pull the lever, because they couldn't live with the loss of one life resulting from their positive action, whereas they feel no responsibility for the five lives they could have saved. (I can look up references for this if anyone's interested.)

Personally, I hope I'd go with the numbers.

[Ozhowff]

I also believe in vaccination of children and adults if they missed out on their childhood immunisations. In Australia if the children are not vaccinated parents lose some benefits.

[gregorach]

Oh, agreed, Dunc. Now imagine your feelings when you fall foul of the relative risk. Do you just shrug your shoulders and say "Well, the numbers were on my side"?

I couldn't see myself at the time doing that, and I completely understand why anyone couldn't see themselves doing it now.

Mike

And when your (or somebody else's) kid ends up with meningitis because you didn't vaccinate them? It's a numbers game either way, and I'm really not convinced that there's any real moral difference between a deliberate action and a deliberate non-action. It's not quite the same as the classic runaway train example that Zach mentions, because in this case you're actually making a deliberate choice, since the default option is to vaccinate.

Well yes,but that doesn't take into consideration the inherent irrationality of human nature.

Oh, believe me, I'm well aware of it. I just happen to think that it's something to be avoided, or at least minimised as much as possible.

Mind you, I've never been able to understand the irrationality of having kids in the first place...

[Rosendula]

I haven't had chance to read all of this yet but it may be of interest to some of you - http://articles.mercola.com/sites/artic ... mbers.aspx For the record, I'm on the fence and that's why I'm following this thread. I'm also on the fence about the guy who wrote the article I've suggested.

[demi]

"The data was collected from parents with vaccine-free children via an internet questionnaire by vaccineinjury.info and Andreas Bachmair, a German classical homeopathic practitioner."

So that'll be a completely representative and unbiased sample with rigorous and consistent diagnostic criteria then... After all, what could be more reliable for resolving complex questions in epidemiology than an internet questionnaire?

Oops, I've just rolled my eyes so hard that one of them's fallen out.

hahaha! lmao



on a scerious note,

vaccine scares are regional. when people were freaking out about the MMR vaccine in the UK the rest of the world diddnt bat an eyelid. dont you think that if a vaccine was truly harmful and causeing scerious side effects that it would happen all over the world in every community thats given the vaccine, and not just in 1 localised area.

[oldjerry]

Well yes,but that doesn't take into consideration the inherent irrationality of human nature.

Oh, believe me, I'm well aware of it. I just happen to think that it's something to be avoided, or at least minimised as much as possible


But,Dunc,that'd be the rationality that gave us Capitalism,Stalinism and Eugenics,to name a few,as opposed tp the irrationality that gave us Shakespeare, Monet , Zappa et al.

[gregorach]

But,Dunc,that'd be the rationality that gave us Capitalism,Stalinism and Eugenics,to name a few,as opposed tp the irrationality that gave us Shakespeare, Monet , Zappa et al.

What the heck is rational about Capitalism, Stalinism, or Eugenics? Just because people claim something is rational doesn't make it so. You have to look at the evidence - and looking at the evidence, those three have not exactly turned out well.

And art is obviously a completely different matter. I honestly can't believe you're even trying to make that argument... Just because I think we should try and be rational in solidly empirical matters of life and death doesn't mean I think we should be rational in absolutely all areas of life. That would be ridiculous. In fact, it would be completely irrational.

I invite you to extend your argument, abandon rationality in all aspects of life, and see how you get on...

[demi]

I haven't had chance to read all of this yet but it may be of interest to some of you - http://articles.mercola.com/sites/artic ... mbers.aspx For the record, I'm on the fence and that's why I'm following this thread. I'm also on the fence about the guy who wrote the article I've suggested.

i think this is a good idea. there has been no mayjor side effects for the flu vaccine ( i take it this is for swine flu ) but many children and pregnant women have died and many more hospitalized because of the flu virus. vaccinating parents to reduce the risk to their children seems like a smart thing to do. maybe they should be giving out the vaccines in schools too.

i got given the flu vaccine when i was pregnant and diddnt have any side effects what so ever, not even any pain on the site of the injection, which was somthing the doctor said can somtimes happen to some people.
better safe than sorry, i wouldnt risk my or my babys life due to crazy conspiricy theorys.

[Millymollymandy]

All I can say is that I have had tons of vaccines throughout my life from a baby to a child (where I had no choice) to an adult where I've willingly had all sorts for travelling and regularly have my tetanus.

I've not yet caught yellow fever, TB, smallpox, hepatitus, polio or any of the other things I've been vaccinated against, nor have I developed anything else as a result of them!

I'm all for vaccinations.

Maybe some of you who are not so keen would think again if you lived in a tropical country rife with deadly diseases?

[Crickleymal]

"The data was collected from parents with vaccine-free children via an internet questionnaire by vaccineinjury.info and Andreas Bachmair, a German classical homeopathic practitioner."

So that'll be a completely representative and unbiased sample with rigorous and consistent diagnostic criteria then... After all, what could be more reliable for resolving complex questions in epidemiology than an internet questionnaire?

Oops, I've just rolled my eyes so hard that one of them's fallen out.

Yes I wondered about that too. And of those vaccinated did any of them have homeopathic vaccines, the ones with nothing in them?