kenboak wrote:Yesterday I telephoned the HM Customs and Revenue advice line to get clarification about whether there was any duty to be paid on biofuel, specifically veg oil (SVO, WVO) when used to fuel a domestic CHP system.
Just to stick me oar in where it may not belong:- It would seem ludicrous if they were to charge Road Fuel Duty on domestic fuel, but surely they would want their 5% VAT, as applicable to other domestic fuels?
BTW I can't figure out CHP - Central Heating & Plumbing?
I was following a van this evening with 'Agricultural Machinery' written on the side. It was giving emissions aplenty and stank like a crocked oil fired boiler at a distance of 100 yards. Heating oil, I assumed, or an agricultural variation of it. Wonder if he got back to Southampton without attracting anybody else's attention.
CHP is combined heat and power, sometimes known as co-generation.
With gas and electricity prices rising so quickly it is now becoming an attractive alternative and an efficient use of renewable fuels.
Typically, a diesel engine running on waste vegetable oil drives a generator to produce electricity. The waste heat from the engine and exhaust - which amounts to 2/3 of the fuel energy, is used to heat your home.
This is a very efficient use of the fuel energy, as opposed to running a motor vehicle. The waste heat is used to heat your house first, rather than going straight into the atmosphere.
Whilst some choose to run their diesel vehicles directly on waste vegetable oil, this is not a practice that I engage in.
HM Customs and Revenue take a very dim view of it, and the fines are heavy if you are caught. They are now stopping vehicles and looking specifically for traces of vegetable oil and other tell-tale substances. It's not just red diesel that they are looking for in the roadside checks.
Waste vegetable oil is not considered a legitimate road fuel and the duty per litre is 47p. If the oil is converted to bio-diesel, that meets an approved standard, then the duty is reduced by 20p, to 27p per litre.
It would be better to promote the biodiesel industry in the UK. This would give jobs to farmers, make real use of set aside land, and help reduce some of our fossil fuel consumption - even if it were only 5%.
Biodiesel can be found for 85p per litre if you shop around - a 10% saving on petroleum diesel.
whilst I understand your optimism, I cant help thinking that you are missing the point I am trying to make.I ask my self why you would have to sign a form giving unrestricted access to your home so they can check you are not using it for commercial reasons or indeed selling it or using it for your vehicle,and why someone using an oil derived from crude oil doesnt have to sign the same form before being allowed to use that as it is equally missused as veg oil can be. so what is the difference , the difference is is that crude oil and its revenues and availability is completely under their control, but at present veg oil and its availability is not, when they have that control which we know they will , then we will find out what we will be charged, which will be alot more than it costs to produce, as it does at present with the oil we buy now.
I am aware that you are talking about a domestic house fuel but the im,plications are the same. and youare right customs and excise do take a dim view of miss use of veg oil, basically for the reason I have tried to explain, and unfortunately you could find your self in the firing line.
I dont mean to try and put you off because it is important that people do make a stand, I am just trying to explain the implications involved . If you are happy with the situation then i would suggest you go ahead,and keep us informed.
Mike
As gas and oil prices rise, many people in the UK are going to be looking for cheaper alternatives.
There are not many renewable fuels available except for firewood, wood waste, charcoal, agricultural waste and vegetable oil.
Whilst most of these can be used for heating, only vegetable oil gives you a relatively easy route to producing your own electricity.
Given a choice between spending £900 this winter with my favourite gas and electricity companies, or spending £900 on 3000 litres of waste vegetable oil and doing my own thing - I know which I will be opting for.
Bulk Waste Vegetable oil is now cheaper than natural gas, and if you know how to use it, you have the means to save money. Who knows how much our bills will rise in the next 12 months as the full effect of the wholesale gas price rises starts to bite.
For what its worth, I ran a 1992 Toyota Townace on used, modified, vegetable oil for a couple of a months (bought it from a local chap who produces it and does all the taxes etc). I was using a 25% veggie old to 75% DERV mix. It worked fine for a while then my fuel pump seized up. I have no idea if this was the result of the veggie oil, or just an old fuel pump on an old car. I've since then replaced that car with a Toyota Hiace Regius, which is a bit too new and expensive to start filling up with veggie oil just yet, but I'd sure like to. I've read that Toyota's are good on veggie oil, Landrovers aren't, and am not sure of the rest. The car certainly did smell like a chip wagon, but nothing too overpowering. I'd certainly try it again with a slightly cheaper car.
The nice thing about having a diesel engine is that you know you can run it on a variety of things, so if fuel shortages do arise again (as they well might) you have some alternatives.... it will probably be then that I start experimenting again!
The best advice I heard was, if you do start using veggie oil, to buy a few extra fuel filters. For the first while the veggie oil cleans out your tank and can bung your fuel filter. It happened to me once, where suddenly it was very hard to get any power to the car, but a quick change of the fuel filter and she was back to normal....
On the tax front, which everyone loves to talk about, I never quite figure out who the onus of proof of payment is on. When I bought oil I got a receipt, which I kept in the car just in case I was pulled over, but then I don't quite know if anyone has ever actually be charged for using veggie oil, and if they did, I'd like to know how they'd prove that you didn't pay tax. With blue-diesel the dye gives it away, but with veggie oil ... well, it'd be useful to know in advance instead of finding your car towed away while some hippie hating customs guy asks you to prove your innocence...
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"Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither." -Benjamin Franklin
bwaymark wrote:Hiy
On the tax front, which everyone loves to talk about, I never quite figure out who the onus of proof of payment is on. When I bought oil I got a receipt, which I kept in the car just in case I was pulled over, but then I don't quite know if anyone has ever actually be charged for using veggie oil, and if they did, I'd like to know how they'd prove that you didn't pay tax. With blue-diesel the dye gives it away, but with veggie oil ... well, it'd be useful to know in advance instead of finding your car towed away while some hippie hating customs guy asks you to prove your innocence...
Ignorance is no defence in this country, I suggest you make some enquiries as you could land up in trouble and even lose your vehicle.
And also your local man doesnt sound legit from my understanding of the law, and if not who knows whether the 75% is diesel or could it be central heating fuel mixed with veg oil or part of each maybe, I say this because CHFuel does not have the same lubrication qualities as derv and a siezed pump would be the sympton of that. Mike
Smooth Hound wrote:
Ignorance is no defence in this country, I suggest you make some enquiries as you could land up in trouble and even lose your vehicle.
And also your local man doesnt sound legit from my understanding of the law, and if not who knows whether the 75% is diesel or could it be central heating fuel mixed with veg oil or part of each maybe, I say this because CHFuel does not have the same lubrication qualities as derv and a siezed pump would be the sympton of that. Mike
Hiya Mike,
I am bit confused by your post. First, who said anything about ignorance? What I was wondering is that if buy fuel off a guy who says he paid taxes on it, and he hasn't, does that affect me at all? As far as I know, if buy my fuel from a high street petrol station, and they don't pay their taxes on the fuel, its them that are in the shit, not me! As it goes, the guy knew what the tax law was, but I have no way of confirming that he pays his taxes, the same as I have to way of telling the high street petrol stations are paying their taxes.
I should be clear, however, that the chap sold me the veggie oil and nothing else (done using the method used here: http://www.bio-power.co.uk/ which I believe is where I got his contact details from). I filled my tank with 3/4 with diesel from the pump then topped the last quarter up with veggie oil.
At this point if they want to seize the vehicle they are free to. It was a dying car anyway and after that it was SORNed and given away....
-Ben.
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"Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither." -Benjamin Franklin
It was your statement 'I never quite figure out who the onus of proof of payment is on' that prompted me to say ignorance is no defence (and I meant ignorance of the law). You just said he was a local chap but if your guy is a registered fuel seller and you have seen proof of that the i'm sure you'll be fine. I'm just warning everyone out there who thinks that putting veg oil in their car is to be taken lightly, that they could end up in a lot of trouble if they haven't gone about it strictly legitimately and covered their backs because if you haven't made sure the duty is paid, it's you who'll be in the sh*t too.
'Nuff said. I won't go on cos it's of no interest to me what people put in their cars now that i've highlighted what can go wrong.
Not belabour the subject, but what proof does one have that one is a registered blah blah blah? The guy said he was, and that was all I really went on. Is there a certificate or anything that fuel sellers have?
Also, does anyone know if anyone has actually be done for using tax evasion after using untaxed veggie oil?
-Ben.
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"Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither." -Benjamin Franklin
When the guy gives you a reciept with his vat No on it does it state that it is for a Diesel veg oil mix, or just Diesel, is he a garage with fuel pumps, if he is he is obviously a legit fuel seller, even so it needs to be on the receipt that the fuel he sold you is a mixture of veg oil and derv, if not I would ask my self why not, if everything seems ok in these ways then you would be fine as far as I understand, How much does he charge by the way. But just to complicate things further, I believe that if someone is straining used waste veg oil as opposed to bought oil and mixing it with derv he is classed as a fuel producer, and that is another licence seperate to a fuel selling licence. But that part I would have thought is the sellers responsibility as long as you have receipts stating that you bought it from him, and he is a seller that is.
With tax it worked out be about around 95p a litre (I can't remember exactly) which was only a few pence cheaper that DERV at the time.
I didn't buy off a forecourt and the guy didn't sell me DERV. He dropped off 5 litre bottle of veggie oil at my house. He pickup used vegitable oil from various locations, strained, added some paint thinner (I think), paid the taxes and sold it on.... that was that.
-Ben.
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"Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither." -Benjamin Franklin
