4x4s?!

[ina]

I apologise to any non-farming 4x4 owners out there - but this is one of my "pet hates"...

Just heard something on the radio (radio 4, pm) which made me listen up - unfortunately I didn't get the start of the story, so if anybody's got the full one, please complete:

In Paris, a group of likeminded people (like my mind, anyway !), go round letting the air out of tyres of 4x4s that quite clearly never see the countryside. 4x4s are not only petrol guzzling (and therefore damaging the environment), they are also very dangerous - not to the people sitting in them, but mainly for pedestrians and cyclists. These peaceful protesters then put a sticker on the windscreen to warn the owners about the tyres (and to make the point why it's been done). They also sometimes splash mud all over the vehicles, adding a note to the effect - if you don't go to the country, the country will come to you.

I think it's great !!! Three cheers to those French people! And the police don't do anything about it, because the cars don't get damaged. And as long as the drivers are warned, you can't even say that the traffic is being endangered...

I hate those b*** 4x4 towny drivers that don't even know the basic country code of driving on narrow roads when they come out here! How often have I been pushed into the ditch (with my Nissan Micra), because those buggers didn't want to get their fancy hub caps dirty! And if you stop at a passing place to let them pass - they rarely do, even if they are closer to it than I am - they don't even thank you for it!

Actually, I think there should be a law against non-farming 4x4 use. Ok, there'll always be some "borderline" cases, horse owners etc, but I am sure they could be dealt with on a one-by-one basis. As long as you own and can prove that you use land, you can have a 4x4.

What do you think? Have I opened a can of worms???

Ina

PS: Our computers have no sound, otherwise I could listen to it again... They don't have everything in print on the BBC website.

[Millymollymandy]

I live in the country and could really do with one. Our drive is up a slope and is gravel with lumpy bits of granite bedrock exposed due to being trashed by trucks and tractors and our poor car goes boing boing boing all the way up it!

Do you know, I don't see any of those fancy 4x4 vehicles round my way - I don't think anyone could afford one! I think the 4x4 owners should be made to swap their vehicles with us poor folk in the country!

[ina]

I don' really want one - too expensive to run, although admittedly it would be handy on those days of the year when I can't leave the site due to road conditions! But if I run out of food I can always borrow the farm Landrover.
No, it's the tourists out here more than anything that cause the trouble, and of course in town, they clogg up all the streets. I witnessed scenes that showed so much arrogance and selfishness by those drivers, it's unbelievable. Parking anywhere, no matter whether it's double yellow line, a busy bus stop, a cycle path... 4x4 drivers can't be expected to walk more than 10 steps to a shop, either.

There is a castle down the glen where they have fancy weddings on a regular basis. I try not to go down that way when I know there's guests about. Most of them come in huge cars and don't know how to behave. And have more money than is good for them, anyway, so they think they have a right not to know how to behave... But I suppose that's another problem altogether.

Ina

[Sue 47]

Well we have a LandRover which we use to tow large trailer about for work and for fetching and carrying bricks etc for our renovations - it has saved us a lot of money in that respect but I agree tho that 4 x 4s should be used for what they were designed for - and the school run doesn't come into it ! We have a little Citroen yellow ex poste car which we use for running about in -it's not the prettiest car on the planet but it does thousands of miles to the gallon - well a lot anyway !
Sue x

[whitelegg1]

I don't have a 4x4, but I don't think that they ARE the problem.

The problem is the inconsiderate drivers, whatever they are driving.

You can cause chaos in a Micra, if you drive and park badly.

It is easy to single out 4x4 owners because:

1. They are still in the minority.

2. They tend to have more money (so they can afford 75k for a Range Rover!!!! ).....Envy

4x4's are BIG...but so are 7 seater MPV's, should you be banned from driving round in one of those on you own???

Estate cars can have just as big a footprint as 4x4's.

And I won't even go into the mpg for a Lamborghini Gallardo!

If a 4x4 is driven responsibly then it shouldn't be a problem...Perhaps the owners should also have a Micaesque car for nipping to the shops, or anywhere of restricted space.

Those urban radicals who think it is clever to target 4x4's without knowing the circumstances of the owner are just being irresponsible..

Do they....park to near junctions.....drift into cycle lanes....leave it until 1 nanosecond before to signal left!!!!!...drive above the spead limit...then slow down just before a camera.....let there children in the car without seat belts on.....drive with the full headlamps on, when not needed....play traffic light grand prix...

I used to own a Vaxhall Nova, and I was a very BAD driver, fortunately I didn't have an accident or cause any.

I now have children and I cycle to and from work.... I would consider myself a much better driver now, whatever car I drive...

This is NOT directed at anyone who has previously posted, but I suggest that people take a good look at what they drive and particularly HOW thay drive before critisisng 4x4 drivers..


Here ends my mornings rant...

[Chickenlady]

I read an article recently about this happening in London.

It makes me laugh in the morning as I see a stream of huge 4X4s driving into the independent school down the road. My sister had one with cow bars on the front - like you get a lot of cows in urban Essex!!

They are not targetted because they are driven irresponsibly, but because they are ridiculous petrol guzzlers and are dangerous, particularly around schools, as they are so high up the drivers cannot see pedestrians, and if they hit you (even if you are in another car) you are more likely to be killed.

Their owners think having one is a way of showing how high their social status is; the rest of us know it is a way of showing they are pratts! (sorry if you are an urban 4x4 driver!).

Personally I would be embarrassed to drive one!

[ina]

They are not targetted because they are driven irresponsibly, but because they are ridiculous petrol guzzlers and are dangerous, particularly around schools, as they are so high up the drivers cannot see pedestrians, and if they hit you (even if you are in another car) you are more likely to be killed.

That's exactly why I am so much against them... And believe me, envy does not come into it. And yes, other large cars aren't particularly environmentally friendly either, and sportscars - well, that's really just a toy for children who never grow up...

Yes, you can drive and park irresponsibly in any car, but my observations show that more often than the total number of 4x4s on the road would justify it's them who have to park on the double yellow line, just in front of the chippie, and at the bus stop, although there is a perfectly good space 20m further on, forcing elderly people and mothers with prams to walk out into the street to board the bus... And it's generally children of 4x4 owners who can't be expected to walk from the car park to the school gates... I have had my right of way on a bike taken more often by those huge machines than by small cars. Only my personal observation, of course, but it seems to be shared by others.

Ina

My friends have a 4x4, which is used for farm work and transport. Nothing against it. I don't actually know what an MPV is, but if you have a family with 5 kids, or 3 kids and the grans, and take them round habitually, I suppose you need a large car, but you still don't need cow bars!

[Millymollymandy]

Cow bars - I call them roo bars and wondered why on earth you would need them outside of Australia!!! Now how many cows are wandering loose on the roads in the UK?

When I lived near Geneva there were a lot of these vehicles about and people used to complain because they took up more than one space in the multistorey car parks. I expect their excuse was that they all went skiing and needed 4x4 for the snow and for transporting their skis. Not true because everyone put winter tyres on their cars and had chains for the snow, also roof racks for the skis. Not to mention the highly efficient snow plough service!

Glad I'm away from all that now.

[whitelegg1]

I tend to disagree that they are inherently dangerous.
If they are driven carefully and considerately, then they should be just as safe as any car/van/bus/ice cream van.

With regards to parking outside school/the chippy/delicatessen! This is down to the drivers mentality.

As far as I'm aware schools tend to have draconian parking restrictions all day outside in the road.

Where are the police/praking attendents. The school markings are there for a reason...SAFETY... Hit them in the pocket...they WILL learn.

If every day they park where they shouldn't it costs them £10 or £20 then they will hopefully realise that having to walk a bit, really isn't that bad.

By some of there attitudes you would think that they couldn't walk, but they are happy to spend £100 plus a month on gym membership and send the kids to ballet / tennis / football etc......

With most local schools, they are exactly that LOCAL.

Don't get in the car, leave 10 mins earlier WALK, then put that money in a jar and treat yourselves to a pain au chocolate and a cappucino!!!

As I said before I cycle to work....that's £5.60 a day saved..it add up, and is an insentive to do it when it is pouring with rain.

Walk to school, talk to you children while you do it.
If more people did it, then more people would do it.


4x4's are very noticible, and thus get singled out for criticism.
But all cars are a prolem in the school situation, so it realy is the drivers that are the problem..

Bull bars are not necessary, but then no are 1 gazillion mirros on a vespa scooter....it all comes down to style.

Most of these add ons a dangerous because if you get hit by the vehicle then the crumple zones do not work as they were designed.

[Wombat]

Most of ours over here don't get anywhere near the bush either M3 and still have the Roo or Bull bars - pedestrian catchers.

Nev

[ina]

I tend to disagree that they are inherently dangerous.
If they are driven carefully and considerately, then they should be just as safe as any car/van/bus/ice cream van.

With regards to parking outside school/the chippy/delicatessen! This is down to the drivers mentality.

As far as I am aware, it has been proven that a person hit by a 4x4 at the speed of, say 30mph, gets injured a lot worse than if this person had been hit at the same speed by an ordinary car... In other words, there are more fatal accidents caused by 4x4s than by other cars at the same speed. And bull bars (or roo bars) seem to be responsible for a lot of that.

And I quite agree, the parking right outside the shop or school is a mentality issue, only this kind of mentality often seems to go with big, or maybe I should say expensive cars? It does annoy me that the police don't do more about it. They always seem to wait until something really serious happens.

Otherwise, I used to do that even as a child, cycle to school and save the money for the bus (and spend it on sweets, and later, drinks... ). And I've always said, if folk cycled or walked they'd save an awful lot of money for the gym, and they'd have fresh air at the same time!

Ina

[Chickenlady]

Ina's right - it is a fact that they are dangerous and do a lot more damage than a normal car if they hit you.

However, it is also true that there are a lot of inconsiderate people driving all sorts of vehicles, and maybe the 4X4ers are an easy target. I don't think you will change people's attitudes by being aggressive towards them - some of the campaigners against 4x4s seem a bit intimidating.

I don't know what the answer is really - we all need to change our attitudes towards driving completely I suppose, but I don't know how it can be done.

[Wombat]

Well said - but, yes, the question is how. I suppose if the petrol price keeps going up it will force the issue!

Nev

[ina]

Higher petrol prices would suit me fine (although I've got to be careful where I say that, some people get terribly worked up about their "human right" to blow away fuel...). And don't worry, anybody, I won't get violent against 4x4 drivers. I know too many of them, and I fear there's no changing their attitude anyway!

But I like the idea with the stickers. Just to point out to them that, even if they don't want to be aware of the issues that go along with driving far too big cars, other people are and care. Years ago my friends in Frankfurt always walked out with a bunch of stickers in their pockets, which they distributed liberally on the windscreens of cars parked on footpaths and cycleways. It certainly made those drivers aware of where they'd gone wrong, and that it's actually dangerous to force the vulnerable out onto busy streets, just so the car drivers didn't have quite so far to walk.

Ina

[whitelegg1]

Accepted that a two ton car is going to hurt more than a one ton car when it hits you. I leant that in appliad maths 'A'Level.

However my point is that it only hurts when it hits you.....unless there is a very unfortunate sequence of events, then this only happens when the vehicle is driven badly OR the pedestrian does something stupid.

IF EVERYONE followed the highway code then there would be no problem.

O.K. this isn't going to happen I know, but start shaming the transgressors.

Teach the kids what is right.

I get told off if I don't wear my bike helmet, or if I'm slow putting on my seatbelt, by my 4 year old daughter.

If the children don't want to be seen being dropped of by ' a car that's as big as a Soviet tank' then the parents will soon listen.