Chicken questions

[fenwoman]

The only thing i have to say about poison is please be careful.

My dog came from a farm where his mum caught rats. One day, she caught a poisoned rat, adn it killed her too, so please be careful that there aren't dogs about who like to catch rats.

I reiterate the care needed. Not all poisons are equal though. I use 2 different types. One is a red block warfarin based. One meal of it kills the rats and the carcass is toxic. However, I rarely find dead rats as they tend to go back to their burrows when they feel ill and die underground. Any carcass I do find is immediately picked up and disposed of . (I have 9 cats and 15 dogs after all). The other is called 'tomcat2'. It is a slow release one. Designed to be nibbled at every day and kills more slowly due to accumulative effect. It has apparently got no secondary poisoning effect. Both are in secure bait boxes positioned carefully along rat runs. You have to have a good look and know where the rats run and put the boxes there and even then, it'll take a couple of weeks for the rats to trust them and start using them.
In all the years I've used rat bait I have always had lots and lots of hunting cats, plus lots of dogs and never ever has either come a cropper because of secondary poisoning. I would be more worried about one of the dogs picking up a bait block poked down a hoel for example but I use secure bait boxes. Cats in particular are very fussy about their prey. They don't touch anything which looks or smells sick and never touch carrion. Occasionally my cats will catch a rodent, bring it home , eat the tail and leave the rest. I take this a sign that something is not right, possible it may have been poisoned, and I dispose of it. However, my not using poison would not stop rats being poisoned. Any one of my neighbours might us it, the farms around me certainly use rat poison. I have to ensure my dog's safety on my own land and trust my cats instincts out in the fields. As I say around 30 years of keeping cats, dogs and living rurally and never once had anything poisoned from rat bait and even if it did happen, prompt veterinary treatment with vitamin K injections should help save lives.
Releasing live trapped rats is futile . Even if they don't come back to your place (because they are highly territorial), you release them into other rats territory where they will be attacked , maybe killed in a fight or if not, try to get back to their territory with some terrible injuries, deep bite wounds, infection etc. A fast acting poison is certainly more humane.
Of course, once you have cleared the problem you have to keep baiting as you have just created a nice new empty territory for some more rats to set up home in.
I have tried most methods of rat control over the years and have found the most effective way is by using bait blocks inside a bait box which nothing other than rats and mice can get into. Even used them when I kept free ranging rabbits and guinea pigs.

A couple of years ago, my local supplier ran out of poison as there was a rat explosion in this area. I had a problem. A rat had managed to chew its way into my aviary block and while the parrots were safe high up on their perches, every morning I found a bantam dead, bitten through the neck and head partly eaten. I went out and spent a fortune on eradirat, live trap and one of those electric rat zappers. Nothing worked. I swear they tucked little bibs in to eat their evening meal of eradirat with relish. They avoided the live trap and zapper. I lost around 8 bantams in the space of a week before I could get more rat blocks. I went around with the red ones (fast acting) and the next morning found a huge female rat almost as large as my big ferrets, walking drunkenly behind the large ferret court. A whack on the head with the spade gave her a quicker death than she had given my bantams and I was bothered no more. A detailed inspection of the dykes surrounding my land revealed several very large holes recently dug out. Literally in the space of about 10 days, a colony had taken over my place while my bait boxes were empty.
This year I bought 2 buckets of poison in readiness cos now is the time they come in off the fields for food and warmth. Food I will give them......... in the form of wax blocks in the special 'rat feeder'.And hopefully the growers and chicks in the aviary block will be safe.
I actually like rats as a species and until recently had 2 much loved pet boys in the house. Lost Bodger about 6 months ago and his brother Dodger died last week. I admire them as a species for their survival skills. I bear them no malice at all. However as a poultry keeper I simply must protect my fowl where possible and keep the numbers of rats under control. Use poison, use bait boxes, use gloves and check daily for carcasses and remove them. (black bin bag in the bin is fine or on the bonfire). If I keep them down to a manageable level then they prevent other colonies from moving in.
Here is one of my previous ratty boys.

[fenwoman]

as i am not a fan of poison:-

something my parents use if humane traps.. baited with peanut butter.. then despatch the rats with air rifle.....

In theory this would work however it would be a very inefficient way of doing it. Traps can only catch one at a time when the colony might be 30 strong or more. PLus not everyone has an air rifle, plus imagine a rat terriefied, hurling itself about inside the trap. How on earth would you manage to aim and kill it with one head shot?
I am a very good shot (it's in my genes) but I doubt I could do it.

Just out of interest and for the purpose of reasoned debate, what is it about poison which you are not a fan of?
Not being contentious but interested to hear and I think such a debate might be useful to those reading who have not made up their mind which method to use.

[red]

In theory this would work however it would be a very inefficient way of doing it. Traps can only catch one at a time when the colony might be 30 strong or more. PLus not everyone has an air rifle, plus imagine a rat terriefied, hurling itself about inside the trap. How on earth would you manage to aim and kill it with one head shot?
I am a very good shot (it's in my genes) but I doubt I could do it.

I agree it is not very efficient. shooting them appears to be no trouble at all - I've seen my dad do the deed.. shot to the head.. done. over. very quick. possibly a nicer end. I don't own a rifle personally, so wont be taking this option

Just out of interest and for the purpose of reasoned debate, what is it about poison which you are not a fan of?
Not being contentious but interested to hear and I think such a debate might be useful to those reading who have not made up their mind which method to use.

well two reasons

1. there is a risk of something other than the intended getting poisoned. We once found a magpie inside the rat trap.. yes it had crawled in to the get the bait, and got trapped. it was pretty pissed off the next day when we found it.. but it was alive, and was released - had it got to poisoned bait.. it would be dead. - and goodness knows what else might have died by eating it.... I have a cat, and i am concerned for other wildlife, and people However careful someone is.. accidents do happen. and then there are the people who are not bothered by being careful.... . for much the same reason I wont use slug pellets.. i wont use rat poison by choice.

2. these nasty chemicals are made in factories... producing waste etc, I sincerely doubt they are organic rat poison! so you have the think of the environmental consequences.

maybe if I ever have a really bad rat problem with my hens i might use it as a last resort.. never say never etc.. but I will try everything else first. half the point of having my own hens is to try and get eggs without nasty conditions and undesirable chemicals.

[fenwoman]

Just out of interest and for the purpose of reasoned debate, what is it about poison which you are not a fan of?
Not being contentious but interested to hear and I think such a debate might be useful to those reading who have not made up their mind which method to use.

well two reasons

1. there is a risk of something other than the intended getting poisoned. We once found a magpie inside the rat trap.. yes it had crawled in to the get the bait, and got trapped. it was pretty pissed off the next day when we found it.. but it was alive, and was released - had it got to poisoned bait.. it would be dead. - and goodness knows what else might have died by eating it.... I have a cat, and i am concerned for other wildlife, and people However careful someone is.. accidents do happen. and then there are the people who are not bothered by being careful.... . for much the same reason I wont use slug pellets.. i wont use rat poison by choice.

2. these nasty chemicals are made in factories... producing waste etc, I sincerely doubt they are organic rat poison! so you have the think of the environmental consequences.

maybe if I ever have a really bad rat problem with my hens i might use it as a last resort.. never say never etc.. but I will try everything else first. half the point of having my own hens is to try and get eggs without nasty conditions and undesirable chemicals.

Thanks for explaining. My counter reasoning would be that blue wax blocks are not only not attractive to things like magpies, but they are strung onm a bit of metal right inside the bait box. Not only inacessable to anything other than a rodent but cannot even be seen since the bar is in a chamber inside the box. Designed that way for optiumum safety. Even if the blocks were thrown down on the ground in full view of animals, they don't look like 'food' to other animals, unlike those grains which I steadfastly refuse to use. Even coloured blue they still look like grains to any grain eating creature.
I agree about slug pellets. Personally slugs just don't cause me a massive problem but if they did, there are lots of ways to stop them damaging plants without having to resort to poison. I have lots of cats, 9 at present and as I said, there is no secondary poisoning with one of the poisons I use. Even if one of my cats went so totally against nature that it caught an obviously sick rat, it would not get poisoned. 25 years keeping cats and using poison has not provided one poisoned domestic pet. Besides, unless you ban the use of rat poison completely a person totally against controlling rats with poison, might cause a massive rat problem for neighbours who threw poison about willy nilly in an effort to control them and this in effect could cause deaths to other than rats so in effect, by not controlling the problem, you might produce more risk to your pets.
As for environmental concerns, I cannot say what is involved in producing the poison blocks. Certainly nothing more harmful for the nevironment than anything else I buy or use. So unless a person was so opposed to using anything manufactured, like clothes, food, cleaning products, medicines etc etc etc, I don't think that this can really be used as an argument.
For instance, I use laundry balls for my washing, the only cleaning product I use is bleach which I use at 1 egg cup full per bucket of water. I wipe all surfaces and the floors get washed 3 times a day with it. I use veggie oil in my car. Most ( a good 95%)of what I buy like clothes, furniture, etc are 2nd hand. I buy wholesale locally grown fruit and veg at the produce auction, U mix my own poultry food from straights (no manufacturing to feed my chickens), so on balance, if producing my rat blocks causes some pollution , which I accept that it will) I figure I am in credit so to speak. Rat control for me is a necessity. I keep and breed purebred chickens I cannot afford to have losses due to rats killing them, besides which, some of the birds are so rare I may be only one of a handful of people in the whole of the UK with that particular colour. I don't like the damage that rats cause to buildings etc and cannot afford to keep replacing and repairing their damage. Living in the fens, surrounded by dykes, if I did not control them efficiently, I would have a huge problem as would my neighbours. A few years ago, my biggest problem was the fact that my townie neighbours simply refused to believe they had rats. Only half of their 1/3 acre garden was used, the rest left to grown wild, and besides, they only went outside on sunny days and sat on the patio. Since they never saw rats on their patio, this to them, meant they had no rats. My problem was that the rats lived and bred over there where it was safe, then dug under the fence to attack my birds. I watched a cocker spaniel of mine years ago sit by the fence listening, then tiptoe along it about 10 yards and quick as a flash got a rat by the head just as it made to come through . Had I not baited religiously there would have been a problem, not just for me, but the old chap who lived on the other side of them. Indeed there were so many rats in the safe haven next door, with lots of food as they threw bread on the grass to feed the wild birds that they had loads and loads of droppings all over the place which I pointed out to them. They looked stunned and told me they thought they were hedgehog droppings!!!
The thing is that you may not think you have a really bad rat problem, but you won't necessarily know it. And Any number of rats on your land, will be a problem. You see one, there are 10 right now and 30 in 2 weeks.

[red]

Besides, unless you ban the use of rat poison completely a person totally against controlling rats with poison, might cause a massive rat problem for neighbours who threw poison about willy nilly in an effort to control them and this in effect could cause deaths to other than rats so in effect, by not controlling the problem, you might produce more risk to your pets.

it would suit me greatly if rat poison were only available to people trained and qualified to use it.

As for environmental concerns, I cannot say what is involved in producing the poison blocks. Certainly nothing more harmful for the nevironment than anything else I buy or use. So unless a person was so opposed to using anything manufactured, like clothes, food, cleaning products, medicines etc etc etc, I don't think that this can really be used as an argument.

I can use it as an argument.. and I did

The thing is that you may not think you have a really bad rat problem, but you won't necessarily know it. And Any number of rats on your land, will be a problem. You see one, there are 10 right now and 30 in 2 weeks.

truth is there are rats everywhere.

[Merry]

Rats everywhere? Are there really?
You see, a woman who has an allotment plot on our site has been going bananas at the committee because she `saw a rat` near her plot. She`s been rallying support to `force the committee to do something about it.`
It`s a huge site of nearly 200 plots adjoining open ground and I`m sure that rats would be part of the ambient wildlife, as it were.
What d`yer reckon?

[fenwoman]

Besides, unless you ban the use of rat poison completely a person totally against controlling rats with poison, might cause a massive rat problem for neighbours who threw poison about willy nilly in an effort to control them and this in effect could cause deaths to other than rats so in effect, by not controlling the problem, you might produce more risk to your pets.

it would suit me greatly if rat poison were only available to people trained and qualified to use it.

oh no not more legislation on the grounds of 'elf and safety'. Even training and qualifications don't stop bad practices or accidents I'm afraid. I don't think that I need training or a bit of paper to say that I am allowed to handle rat bait. I am very aware of what it does and how dangerous it can be. I don't want to kill anything other than the target species. Iunderstand rats because I kept the species as pets for years, I also read several very good websites to fill in any gaps in my knowledge. I can check my land (or anyone's land) note holes, runs where they always go and would be able to position a bait box safely and effectively. To be honest I am firmly opposed to all this government legislation which deems even a walk in the woods as being dangerous and requiring adults to have a certificate and profisiency test in order to be able to ensure the safety of any children in their care and to be able to teach them to pick up sticks and carry them safely in order for there not to be a 'health and safety' issue. The latter is actually true, not some made up nonsense.
You cannot legislate common sense and responsibility and all the legislation in the world will not prevent irresponsible people getting hold of any number of dangerous or potentially dangerous things and using them carelessly. Think of inner city gun crime, illegal drugs, illegal snares or traps.

As for environmental concerns, I cannot say what is involved in producing the poison blocks. Certainly nothing more harmful for the nevironment than anything else I buy or use. So unless a person was so opposed to using anything manufactured, like clothes, food, cleaning products, medicines etc etc etc, I don't think that this can really be used as an argument.

I can use it as an argument.. and I did

Well yes you can and you did. But unless you buy nothing manufactured, drive no vehicle other than a horse and cart, I don't think the argument is valid lolol

The thing is that you may not think you have a really bad rat problem, but you won't necessarily know it. And Any number of rats on your land, will be a problem. You see one, there are 10 right now and 30 in 2 weeks.

truth is there are rats everywhere.

Oh indeed, the species will never be eradicated in the wild and I would not wish it to be but sadly because humans create an artificial environment which allows them to thrive and since we have killed off lots of the predator species (foxes catch and eat rats) then we have to find an efficient way to control their numbers. For myself and because of the type of land I live on (fens) and because of the dreadful damage rats have caused in the past here killing my bantams, attacking and maiming my pet barn owl etc, I find that bait boxes and poison to be the only efficient way.
I have no airgun so a live trap will not be any good. I cannot use breakneck traps because they kill and injure any animal whether pet, wild bird, chicken etc, so that really only leaves poison.
I hope this debate has proved useful to people. As poultry keepers, we will all be called upon at some time or another to think about getting rid of a rat problem. I really hate it if I visit another poultry keeper and note dozens and dozens of large rat holes all over the property which they seem simply to regarded as part and parcel of keeping poultry. I'm horrified that they can be so blase about rats, mind you at one place I went to recelntly, not only the rat holes, but the pile of dead birds in a corner next to the stream (the source of drinking water for the birds), the stagnant mud where the ducks were penned which stank to high heavens and was black and oozing and which her chickens were drinking, the sick and thin birds which were running about all with a bad case of mycoplasma (which she had never heard of and didn't know what it was or how to cure it) and the fact that she set herself up as a purebred poultry breeder and was selling hatching eggs all over the country on ebay (not even realising that mycoplasma is carried in the eggs so she is infecting every single buyer's flock when they hatch!!!!). I'm not easily horrified but I was horrified and tried to give her as much advice as I could so as to improve things. Whether she takes it is another thing. It annoyed me more than a bit, as the information is all out there had she gone online or bought some decent poultry books instead of the 'encyclopaedia of chickens' which is little more than a picture book. Hence my signature "ignorance is self inflicted".
I personally think that there should be a certficate of competence and knowledge for anyone wanting to set themselves up as a pure bred poultry breeder and hatching egg supplier not least to stop spreading disease around but also on welfare grounds. And this person also sold eggs to people for eating . Mind you she did say that 'someone' had been creeping onto her land at night and placing bad eggs all black inside, into the nest boxes which several customers had complained about.

[red]

you know Fenwoman, i don't think you are wrong.. and who knows.. in your shoes I might make the same decision.. certainly it seems you have thought about it and are careful with the poison - which is the main thing. Just at the moment, this is my feeling on the subject.

Yes I hope the debate has helped someone.

Merry - yes there are rats everywhere.. and you do have to take into account that rats carry diseases that are bad news for humans. certainaly a good reason to wash your hands before eating - particularly when rats have been spotted... as for wiping them out? fat chance.. and i doubt it would be a good idea either.

[Millymollymandy]

Somewhere around my property is a rat wearing a mouse trap! One of the traps has disappeared but how it is has got out of the chook shed wearing it I do not know!

Everything we've tried so far hasn't worked, neither the traps where the rat gets caught inside a cage (with poisoned bait, or with cheese or any other kind of bait), as for the regular mouse and rat traps, the buggers just eat the bait without setting off the traps.

Latest gadget yet to be checked today is a trap where they can get in but can't get out. I've yet to see it as my OH just got it yesterday. If it works there is a larger rat version.

I seem to have very wise rats and mice here.