Do you keep livestock? Having any problems? Want to talk about it, whether it be sheep, goats, chickens, pigs, bees or llamas, here is your place to discuss.
red wrote:well its overkill.. but the point is that if your potatoes might have been peeled in the same environment as ..lets say the knife that cut the sausage that had swine fever in it... then it gets outside.. bla bla bla
course.. if you peel your own veg outside.. with a special never-been-in-the-kitchen knife.. then you should be fine...
i too grew up giving hens kitchen scraps, but the rules have changed..
So if you are a vegetarian it should be ok (I am)
No... the defra rules cover vegetarian kitchens too...
As Red says though... some of us can peel our veg outside, with a special 'never been in the kitchen' knife.
So s'cuse my ignorance but if you are not cutting up meat in the kitchen, what is the risk?
I don't mean to hash up an obviously old topic, it's just that it is the first I've heard of it and in NZ most home chickens here are fed almost entirely on scraps with pellets being a booster to their feed. So it is with much that I am reading about the DEFRA rules.
Jean. That was funny. We owned a cafe/restaurant for a lot of years and the paranoia around hygiene gets to be really funny(although I totally agree with the need for real and common sense hygiene of course). The really funny part is that the most recent evidence is that wood is more hygienic than plastic. Something in the wood that actually kills bacteria so that will put some more panic into the system. So much of modern hygiene really is fashion at the time - they are now releasing the old fashioned wooden chopping blocks back into butchers.
Recent newspaper article (Daily Telegraph 29/1/08) also saying that "scientists have discovered that Dairy farmers are five times less likely than the general populace to develop cancer. The study found farmers typically breathed in dust that consisted largely of dried manure, and all the bacteria that grew in it. New Scientist said adults who had a greater exposure to germs than usual might build up a better resistance to bugs, including cancer." Looks like we are all going to be healthy
Red. You would not believe the trouble I have I gotten into for pointing out this law on other fora. On RC I was sent insulting and obnoxious PMs and had to insist I was deregistered because of the insulting nature of the messages I was being sent. I have also been given a hard time on INEBEG. I'm glad to see that so far people are being more sensible about it here.
It is true that too many people who know better advise newcomers to feed kitchen scraps and dont support anyone who points out it is illegal.
It is highly unlikely that one would start an epidemic of anything by doing so (but ask the bods at the animal health lab!!) but if that should ever occur they have you by the short and curlies. Also some folk make complaints about others keeping chooks and if trading standards or whoever come round and find kitchen waste in the run then you will be for the high jump.
There is undoubtedy a risk in feeding kitchen scraps which may be contaminated. That is so for chickens or any other farmed animal.
Vegetarian kitchens have to be included because otherwise the bad guys simply say 'oh its OK guv I'm a veggie' and get away with murder. And not all workers or visitors to veggie kitchens are veggies themselves and non-contamination from meat in any kitchen cannot be guarranteed. Many will buy their veggie diet from the supermarket very possibly directly opposite and contaminated from the meat counters. A veggie kitchen is not risk free.
Swill feeding of pigs has been banned for many years and why would one wish to give scraps to chickens? BSE is thought to have originated in the incomplete rendering of scraps and the infective agent may cause disease at contamination levels below one thousandth of a gram!!! So no matter how well you may wash or keep veggies away from meat in kitchens the EU concludes the risk is just too high. The 2001 foot and moth outbreak cost £8.5 Billion to put right (if that could ever be done) and was thought to have originated in the feeding of scraps to pigs and then spread far and wide by the trade in sheep.
All the smallholder etc mags have been carrying Defra ads to this effect for about two years and still they publish articles saying its OK to feed your scrap porridge etc to the hens. Smallholder even published an article extolling the usefulness of meat scraps!!! Followed 5 pages later with the DEFRA ad!!!
There is no exemption for amateur keepers, pet keepers or any other form of chicken keeper. If you keep animals which are normally farmed the law applies to you.
Keeping any animal away from waste food is part and parcel of normal bio security I am afraid.
Whether one keeps within the law is an entirely individual decision but it is best to know what is right and what is wrong. And the possible consequences of failing to keep within the law.
I have also been severely critisised before for pointing out that it may not be a good idea to publish on a public forum the fact that you are breaking the law......
Thanks for your posts they are very informative. I am in NZ so your laws don't apply here but me thinks that anything that can prevent the sickening sight of cows in piles being burnt must be a good thing. It is obviously quite an issue for the UK so I'm glad that this forum has handled it nicely as well ... especially with my 'but why' questions being thrown in the mix.
I do hope it doesn't become a law here though ... I don't stress about scraping my kids half-eaten food into the scraps bucket because I know the chickens will at least appreciate my cooking! It's interesting because my girls will not eat vege peelings so they go in the compost. They love cake, bread and porridge!
Well of course one of the reasons its become law in the EU is because it was/is a Political hot potato and legislating in this manner means that never again can any EU Government be blamed for 'allowing' its citizens to act in 'such a stupidly risky manner' as that tabloids would and have said. It gives our politicians the right to point the finger of blame squarely at the keepers and deflect blame away from themselves. That was not the politically percieved case over either BSE or FMD in 2001. Our Government, the public at large and the EU are now extremely risk averse when considering animal and human disease and its possible causes. Our government came under intense pressure from the public when BSE and then FMD struck. That pressure said 'something must be done' and this is one of the results - it is no longer acceptable for keepers of farm animals to place livestock or humans at any risk of disease whatsoever. The buzz word is biosecurity, biosecurity, biosecurity.
You have no less a risk in NZ than we do but then it is not important to your Government to rid itself of the minuscule risk of animal disease in the same way as it is in the EU.
Its not a 'bad' thing to feed chooks on scraps, we all did it for time immemorial, its just that its now illegal to do so over here!!!!
EDIT: should have pointed out that disease may also be soil and water borne so that too will affect veggie kitchens.
guyandzoe wrote: ... You have no less a risk in NZ than we do but then it is not important to your Government to rid itself of the minuscule risk of animal disease in the same way as it is in the EU. ...
I think any yucky disease coming into NZ would be a major blow to our export business wouldn't it? Biosecurity in NZ is a big big thing. Just try getting through customs!
Guy & Zoe - I hope you didn't take my previous post as either criticism of you or plain out and out irresponsibility.
I last kept chickens about 15 years ago and fed them scraps then and now the rules have changed "in my absence". I find the issue ridiculous but am happy not to feed the scraps from the kitchen - my problem is the compost heap. I don't want the hens locked up - if I do that I might just as well buy eggs from the supermarket. I'll have to do some more thinking!
guy&zoe - sorry you had a hard time on other forums on this subject. For some reason people get angry with the person mentioning it and not the law! I too have been hassled on other forums for mentioning it.
Its refreshing that it can be discussed here, just as well we are such a nice bunch here eh?
MsWF - I would imagine that there was very minimal risk of any problems in a veggie kitchen, and if I were in NZ, where this law does not apply, I would be giving my scraps to the chickens (and I am not a vegetarian)
Its likley that the risks are smaller in NZ, here in Europe we are squeeze up with other countries , and squeezed up within the country! - there is so much more potential for trouble. but as G&Z said.. alot of this is the government covering themselves.
Red
I like like minded people... a bit like minded anyway.. well people with bits of their minds that are like the bits of my mind that I like...
I apologise for cousing such a stir in what seemed at the time a simple question. Well at least we are all informed correctly now, so there is no excuse. I really appreciate everyones input, it has been a most interesting read, annoying as the rule from DEFRA is, it does make sense, and it is up to us to be sensilble and to take note of why this came about.
Thanks again,
Jean wrote:But if your chickens roam around the garden (as mine are about to) and the compost heaps are also in the garden (as are mine) what do you do? Put up a "No entry to chickens" sign?
(I'm obviously talking peelings here, not meat)
It's easier to put your compost in a bin or some fence wire around open heaps to keep the chooks out, rather than fence the chooks in somewhere!
(I am)
that I am reading about the DEFRA rules.
Jean. That was funny. We owned a cafe/restaurant for a lot of years and the paranoia around hygiene gets to be really funny(although I totally agree with the need for real and common sense hygiene of course). The really funny part is that the most recent evidence is that wood is more hygienic than plastic. Something in the wood that actually kills bacteria so that will put some more panic into the system. So much of modern hygiene really is fashion at the time - they are now releasing the old fashioned wooden chopping blocks back into butchers. 
